Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Lord Gunner24 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:56 pm

I will go back into my cave if Gunner will crawl back under his rock.

I'm very happy with my rock, thank you sloop........

I can well understand some people NOT liking the rule, and NOT wanting to use it, fair enough......but to not understand it, well, that person must be in the wrong forum.

as long as it looks square shape....

Yup, change from whatever formation they are in, to a square shape (we all know what a square shape looks like right, we learnt that in primary school) and then hit the magic square button.

My rock has been firmly lodged back in place with me nice and comfortable underneath it.......till the next time I emerge.

Note : I only commented as I was one of the very first to use the LCS rule.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Chromey » Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:16 pm

my square was shaped like a square but it wasnt exactly square enough for others. In the future others squares wont be square for me as well. Thats why Im gonna play from now
on

Line, Column, Square.
Not Line, Square*, Square.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Lord Gunner24 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:57 pm

That seems fair enough......

But, two questions for anyone interested -

1. If a square is not square enough, how can a column be more square than a square ?.

2. Anything that is a square can be squared with the magic button, so if a non square column can be magic squared, why can a square (which is more square than a column) not be magic squared ?.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby DOC » Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:58 pm

Not being funny but a column in a box shape is not a square you are totally misinterpretating what a column is/looks like. Plus a long thin 'column' is called a column of march and is not a tactical column, ie easy to change formation quickly, it is used when you know there is no threat of imminent action. Also you do realise it's actually quicker for the little sprite men to form a square shape from line rather than the long thin column. All the LCS is for is to abstractly show the time delay of forming an actual square. As for square shape well since its an HB we want to keep things looking historical.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Lord Gunner24 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:04 pm

All the LCS is for is to abstractly show the time delay of forming an actual square

Completely correct, and a large part of why LCS was "invented" in the first place.

my square was shaped like a square but it wasnt exactly square enough for others.

If the square shape was shaped like a square, it MUST have been more like a square than a column.....so if it was more like a square than a column, then you should be OK to hit the magic square button without any complaint..........because one, you have already changed formation to a square, and two, because how can a column be more like a square than a square ?.

The point here is IF you can change a column to a square you must also be able to change a square to a square.

Hmmmm, maybe a good job I went and hide under my rock.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Chromey » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:34 pm

LOL gents now were getting somewhere! If you say that it takes the sprites longer to go into a column then a square then.. Wouldnt troops forced to column before they square give cavalry more time to try and deliver their charge? Wouldnt it also reduce people marching their infantry all around in fat squares and thus not really affecting their rate of fire? A column would reduce it more... This giving cav a greater effect! The effect just like as if they were forcing infantry in real battles to form squares! :looney:
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby turcoman » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:04 am

In Napoleonic period, infantry could have only one of these three things at a time:

1- Mobility (running, moving fast etc..)
2- Firepower (must be stable, and in line formation for greater effect)
3- Protection against cavalry (square or any square shaped formation, which reduces firepower and minimizes mobility but provides defence against cavalry)

These 3 property can not exist in the same time. In LCS, they are represented with two simple rules:

1- Unit must be in a square shaped formation (call it column or whatever you want)

This picture explains it very well. Anything but the central picture CAN NOT form square. It represents the lower firepower, and square shaped formation which provides better defence vs.. cavalry.

http://www.realtimestrategy.it/files/id ... 75_130.jpg


2- The only thing must be added to this picture is: the unit must be completely stable, which means you can not hit square button, whilst you are running in "square shaped" formation, even if you pause the halt button before. This rule represents the immobility of the unit. Which means a running unit can not form square, it must first halt, get into proper square formation totally (which takes long time, thats the reason you cant just click halt and immediately magic CA square)

There is no need to make things even complicated like "forcing a thin column before square". As Gunner pointed out, it is not logical, and it reduces the realism.

Bottom line, Its easy, if you want to form square make sure your unit is like in formation just like in the "YES" picture in the link, and make sure that all your men in the unit are stable, and taken up formation like in the picture. Then you can press the button and form a "NAPOLEONIC square".

The thing with HBs is, players must be really enjoying in realism in HBs, so much so that, they should enjoy the realism as they enjoy winning the game, sometimes even more. Otherwise ambition to win will overcome the appliance of the rule, and ugly magic CA squares will appear instead of real Napoleonic squares...

I was able to play with Old Guards of HB, and there were 0 arguement about LCS rule amongst them. The key was nobody was forming the square unless he and his opponent was sure that unit could form a square...


Sloop wrote:Historical battles are not accurate simulations and Classics are even less accurate. The difference is playability.


A classic player will never see something like Kellerman's charge in Marengo, or Murat's great cavalry charge in Eylau. Thanks to magical CA square... Only an HB player, with proper LCS ruled games of course, have the privilege to see such joyful vision...

He will not know what is reinforcement, why he can not give up some positions in the battlefield, and retreat to anywhere he wants (for example to the opposite of his supply line) and why he must hold there until his reinforcements arrive (otherwise the consequences could be disastrous). He will not know anything about how Davout marched 48 hours to Austerlitz...

The only thing classic player will know is bringing 15 infantry and 4 light cav, make an organized attack supported by TS contact, onto the opponents who has no contact but typing. Use the cheap light cavs to take out enemy art, and advance with superiority in firepower, no matter if you got cavalry or not (as you can magically form a CA square) Even if he is in a LOC game, he will just bring some grenadier units to attack there, and thats it...

You can not even compare LOC games with HBs, let alone the strange illogical deathmatch games...

Big thanks to the great minds of HB creators/developers and LCS inventors / proper applicants ! :)

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby FireTight » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:38 am

turcoman wrote:...
A classic player will never see something like Kellerman's charge in Marengo, or Murat's great cavalry charge in Eylau. Thanks to magical CA square... Only an HB player, with proper LCS ruled games of course, have the privilege to see such joyful vision...
...

There is definitely one important difference between "HB players" and "classic players". "Classic players" don't need to keep reminding themselves and jerking eachother off how amazing they are and how they are even better than a freaking oxygen. ;) I'm sorry, but that's all I saw these last few days/weeks - glorious LCS, "oh, you used LCS rule? it's still not LCS", "LOL they played without LCS", amazing HBs, "we have our gentlemen's agreements", "our squares are perfect", best thing ever, bla bla bla...

On the other hand, "classic players" are just playing the game, having fun, hell, even drop some HBs into the mix (oh, I'm sorry, I don't have the right to call it HBs, because... OH MY GOD, THE HORROR!!!... we used our own rule; even CA made this mistake, because AI doesn't respect LCS! (haha, just kidding)). It's just a freaking game after all. And honestly, I would rather be considered as a "classic player" my whole life than become one of these "LCS OR DEATH" players. IMHO even most ArmA players doesn't do this crap to the rest of (not so realistic) shooters on the market.

And don't get me wrong, I don't have ANYTHING agaist HBs in general, I think Desaix did an awesome job. For example when I was reading Memories of Jean-Roch Coignet and then played Montebello or Marengo and saw "his" unit, it got whole different meaning. Anyway, I just think community around this part of NTW3 stinks just a little bit. :)

P.S.: That Murat's charge won't be accurate even with LCS, because cavalry can't ride THROUGH the units! :P

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby DOC » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:25 am

Just as a pointer you do realise that HB'S ae designed to be used with LCS. Plus all this about the happy life of a classic player, have you ever seen a classic tournament, the amount of arguments that arise are monumental.

We can agree to disagree over HB'S but I can't understand how charging from sides rear ie mottas rule is less complicated than LCS, we have actually tried that before and it caused more problems, I that charge wasn't from the side blah blah.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Chromey » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:04 am

Ive yet to get one definite arguement about why it is better to form square from square, when non experienced players can not form well, than to use thinner columns.

All I get is hot air :confused:


Egos aside.. I have apologized to Lord Desaix for being incorrect in my assumption of my square so can I please get some real thought to my previous question?
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby DOC » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:23 am

Chromey wrote:Ive yet to get one definite arguement about why it is better to form square from square, when non experienced players can not form well, than to use thinner columns.

All I get is hot air :confused:


Egos aside.. I have apologized to Lord Desaix for being incorrect in my assumption of my square so can I please get some real thought to my previous question?



Ok forming the square SHAPE from line is just the mechanic that abstractly shows the delay and time needed for troops to actually form square from line. Forming a long thin column from line actually takes longer than forming the square shape, to long really, thats why the square shape is a nice fit. Plus and im not trying to be funny here, how is it hard to form your troops into a square shape, its a square, everyone knows what one looks like. Also for aesthetic reasons having your troops form a long thin column ie a marching column, rather than the square shape, just looks silly, from a historical point of view.

i hope this clarifies things for you.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby [NBC]Friant » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:38 pm

Ive yet to get one definite arguement about why it is better to form square from square, when non experienced players can not form well, than to use thinner columns.

From Wiki
A military column is a formation of soldiers marching together in one or more files in which the file is significantly longer than the width of ranks in the formation. The column formation allowed the unit rapid movement, a very effective charge (due to weight of numbers) or it could quickly form square to resist cavalry attacks, but by its nature only a fraction of its muskets would be able to open fire.

during the Napoleonic Wars, French units would approach in column formation and deploy into line when close to the enemy.

The square shape was decided upon because in the heat of battle a 'fat line' could be mistaken as a column, ie like the one in the picture from your Helsberg battle, if the formation is more square than column there is no mistake, the player has formed his troops ready to square, no debate, no question, square is the intention.
From a players point of view there is no mistaking that a square formation is there solely to form square as soon as it is threatened by cavalry... The fact that it has to be stationary and no stragglers is for the benefit of the player using the cavalry. You all know how important it is not to waste cavalry and there is nothing worse than sacrificing them on an instant square. Because of this rule cavalry on the HB battlefield play the role they were intended for.
If there was someway LCS could be hard coded then there would be no need to debate this:
viewtopic.php?f=138&t=15465

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Chromey » Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:41 pm

what more silly Doc? Infantry in column prepped to form square or having Turcoman type in chat



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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby DOC » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:13 pm

Well maybe that was a bit of an over reaction from Turco I wasn't there so hard to comment on it. I'm hoping I will have time to watch the replay today/tomorrow.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby turcoman » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:30 pm

No need to watch replay, here you go Doc

http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc ... 3BD9B07B9/

he claimed that this unit was in square column formation. I explained him 2 times before the game on TS and he interrupted me and he said he knows about LCS, appearently he still does not have any clue ?

Maybe mine was overreaction, but it just pisses me off, when i tried to explain you twice and instead of listening, you behaved like a wise HB veteran, yet all you say was "you will wait 3 seconds before forming square after your unit stopped", and you were claiming "oooh my men are touching !!? "

Besides you were the first in the game who was whining about Sigismund's ugly moving square.

The rule is easy, its just one damn rule, form the square shape, wait for men stop and then press this damned square button. Do not form square, unless you are sure that you can. Its an easy rule, if it takes 3 pages for you to understand it, better play classic or just read the rules until you have clue...
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Ztrain909 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:52 pm

My dear Turco,
My "Polish Coalition" brother, if your going by that pic, I'm sorry, that is an overreaction.
That was not that bad of a formation to go into a square. If it was the one on the left then I could see.

Could it have been better? Sure, but it wasn't bad at all. Very acceptable.

Give Chromey a break. U have to remember he is a "classic player Devil," not an "Elite HB Angel" like us.

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Gonzo » Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:38 am

It was fat line. Hes mistaken columns with fat lines.

Deseix stop talking about 7 lines columns, that just confuse people. SQUARE shape that is all what player need to know.

Square shape, and that`s it.
If you really don`t understand what square is, go back to primary school, we cant help, as it looks more like some trollish attempt.

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Lord Desaix » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:47 am

Well I think that if that unit was formed in 7 ranks we would have not wasted 30 posts to speak about that.

A rule cannot have lot of interpretations like suggested by Ztrain. I understand you're trying to bring more players to HB, but every one playing HB with rules must have a clear picture of them otherwise he risk to spoil other's pleasure. This is not classic where they feared to introduce rules because they know how could end so they accepted to cope with a crappy insta square from line. I'd rather prefer not to have square than looking at a square formed at the last second. Really, I gave up playing classic after looking at that first time: it's something my napoleonic soul will never ever stand.

You don't play tennis with an opponent who sometimes claims to be able to serve on the whole court instead that on the small square. I think that people should endure more ctiticism when posted in an educated manner with the purpose to improve rule understanding by everybody.
In that case the russian player charged his cavalry with the clear assumption that french COULD NOT square at the last second because it was not either in a squared shape formation nor in a column with at least 7 ranks (means 7 full ranks or more, not less). And that was replicated some minutes later with another two squares.

This is why I dared to post, because it looked like that french player had not a perfect comprehension of the rule, honestly I did not know he was Chromey or Sigizmund or Sir Wolly or whoever.

Quite easier if we read something like "oh guys, apologize now I know how it works, thanx for pointing that out"

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Lord Gunner24 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:55 am

I have to agree with this -
SQUARE shape that is all what player need to know.
Square shape, and that`s it.


Really, is it so hard to know what a damn square looks like ?.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Sloop » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:42 pm

In my last battle of HB with Tactacus he tried to form a perfect "collum" however my artillery round shot continued to disrupt the formation and they were not capable of standing still long enough for him to form square, but he formed the square anyway. When I pointed out that be had broke the rules he called me a gamey biatch.

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby [NBC]Friant » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:59 am

If the column had been formed and was stationery before the artillery disrupted the column he was correct.

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby DOC » Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:47 am

Can't say I've ever heard of 'historically accurate' hb players ever making a rule saying that if the stationary square is under fire that it can't form square just because a few men have been bowled over by round shot. I mean come on a bit of common sense please.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Sloop » Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:33 pm

A few questions came up in an HB battle concerning the square. These issues are probably arbitrary and the gentlemen involved were able to avoid an argument however I thought I would bring them up here for friendly discussion.

When using the "7 Line" rule I was informed, incorrectly I believe, that 6.5 lines and above, as in mathematics, is to be rounded up to a full 7 and considered legal?

As a unit takes fire its ranks are constantly moving to reform, I assumed that once troops in the unit have stopped moving for 3 seconds the square may be formed regardless of movement to replace the ranks (including artillery “knock downs”)? This might be a factor when using the 7 line rule, the estimated square rule, and all other variants of LCS.

I believe I was correct in my assumption, referring to all of the variations of the LCS rules, that a unit may loose its legal right to form square due to casualties, regardless if it has never moved?

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby DOC » Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:46 pm

Now your just splitting hairs Sloop.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Sloop » Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:01 pm

DOC wrote:Now your just splitting hairs Sloop.
As is this entire thread?


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