Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

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Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby FireTight » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:39 pm

10th March 2015 -- 4v3 -- Battle of Heilsberg -- win (as Russia)

Russia: Sigismund (Bagration), Turcoman (Uvarov), FireTight (Lvov), uldaCZ (loc :D),
France: Chromedark (Napoleon), ALFR (Soult), Sir Wolly (Murat) (I think, I'm not so sure)

With LCS!!1!11!1!1!1!11!1!1! :D

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Replay: http://ulozto.net/xhZxAnfL/ntw3-150310- ... erg-replay

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby DOC » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:40 am

So how did you find HB with LCS applied. Slower, more tactical with cavalry in a better overall place with their increased chance to catch infantry in line?
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Lord Desaix » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:02 pm

Could be they got severe lag because I cannot understand why the french left with plenty of fresh infantry regiments and cavalry. You can see first time of LCS for some because I saw at least 3 illegal squares done at minute 58 and 55 in the centre. Fat lines of 5 and a half ranks formed square in the face of cavalry charges and at last second too. If one is not sure about the formation (must be a squared shape columnor at least 7 full ranks column) square should at least be formed in advance, in this case cavalry has some time to recall the charge.

http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc ... 46E32B1F5/

http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc ... 3BD9B07B9/

Russians quite bold, after they charged and recaptured the village, they crossed the stream keeping on attacking the french lines uphill taking lot of casualties. I can hear the jagers colonel double checking Bagration's order "Sir, you really want me to attack them there with a full french division coming on our flank?" "Yes Colonel, the fate of russia lies in your men" :mrgreen:

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Sigizmund S. » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:38 pm

Lord Desaix wrote:
Russians quite bold, after they charged and recaptured the village, they crossed the stream keeping on attacking the french lines uphill taking lot of casualties. I can hear the jagers colonel double checking Bagration's order "Sir, you really want me to attack them there with a full french division coming on our flank?" "Yes Colonel, the fate of russia lies in your men" :mrgreen:

Now jagers colonel - simple soldier because he coward and retreat back too early.
Srly i intends to make risky cross river. (Wanted to see new french troops on my left, not on centre where ally fighting versus all french heavy cav)
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby FireTight » Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:46 pm

DOC wrote:So how did you find HB with LCS applied. Slower, more tactical with cavalry in a better overall place with their increased chance to catch infantry in line?

The only difference I saw in that battle were those amazingly good argues about "was that illegal square or not???" :D

Lord Desaix wrote:Could be they got severe lag because I cannot understand why the french left with plenty of fresh infantry regiments and cavalry.

Chrome left after he lost his army and he was hosting.

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby stilgar » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:39 pm

FireTight wrote:
DOC wrote:So how did you find HB with LCS applied. Slower, more tactical with cavalry in a better overall place with their increased chance to catch infantry in line?

The only difference I saw in that battle were those amazingly good argues about "was that illegal square or not???" :D


Pretty clear sign this was not really an LCS game, after all :wink: ... but good to know people trying it.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby FireTight » Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:02 pm

stilgar wrote:
FireTight wrote:
DOC wrote:So how did you find HB with LCS applied. Slower, more tactical with cavalry in a better overall place with their increased chance to catch infantry in line?

The only difference I saw in that battle were those amazingly good argues about "was that illegal square or not???" :D


Pretty clear sign this was not really an LCS game, after all :wink: ... but good to know people trying it.

Well, honestly, I didn't even need LCS rule, because I didn't form a single square. So, you are basically right, even though you actually aren't. :wink:

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Chromey » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:52 pm

so to form square in LineColumnSquare you must be in 7 ranks or more standing still for atleast 3 seconds with all men in formation touching right?
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Lord Desaix » Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:06 am

Chromey wrote:so to form square in LineColumnSquare you must be in 7 ranks or more standing still for atleast 3 seconds with all men in formation touching right?


Correct, but more than number of ranks (7 is good for average of units of 120/140 men) the column should be square shaped as much as possible. For example in MOntebello with large units 200+ men each, just 7 ranks is still a fat line, let's say that column should look like a square more than a rectangle and you will not fail. Check rule topic in HB subforum and you will see some pictures.

A squared column is a guarantee that there is a correct trade off between fire rate and readyness to form square since we know that usually a closed column was adopted to repulse cavalry. Of course the best solution would be to count 10 seconds before pressing square from line and 5 from column but I cannot really imagine something like that implemented in MP. At least this LCS shortcut is a checkable compromise, far from good, but acceptable.

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby DOC » Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:29 am

Lord Desaix wrote:
Chromey wrote:so to form square in LineColumnSquare you must be in 7 ranks or more standing still for atleast 3 seconds with all men in formation touching right?


Correct, but more than number of ranks (7 is good for average of units of 120/140 men) the column should be square shaped as much as possible. For example in MOntebello with large units 200+ men each, just 7 ranks is still a fat line, let's say that column should look a square more than a rectangle and you will not fail. Check rule topic in HB subforum and you will see some pictures.

A squared column is a guarantee that there is a correct trade off between fire rate and readyness to form square since we know that usually a closed column was adopted to repulse cavalry. Of course the best solution would be to count 10 seconds before pressing square from line and 5 from column but I cannot really imagine something like that implemented in MP. At least this LCS shortcut is a checkable compromise, far from good, but acceptable.


so sad that CA couldn't be bothered to program so that when you hit the square button that your line formation would be extremely vulnerable to cav for X amount of seconds. Lazy bastards.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Lord Desaix » Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:15 am

DOC wrote:
Lord Desaix wrote:
Chromey wrote:so to form square in LineColumnSquare you must be in 7 ranks or more standing still for atleast 3 seconds with all men in formation touching right?


Correct, but more than number of ranks (7 is good for average of units of 120/140 men) the column should be square shaped as much as possible. For example in MOntebello with large units 200+ men each, just 7 ranks is still a fat line, let's say that column should look a square more than a rectangle and you will not fail. Check rule topic in HB subforum and you will see some pictures.

A squared column is a guarantee that there is a correct trade off between fire rate and readyness to form square since we know that usually a closed column was adopted to repulse cavalry. Of course the best solution would be to count 10 seconds before pressing square from line and 5 from column but I cannot really imagine something like that implemented in MP. At least this LCS shortcut is a checkable compromise, far from good, but acceptable.


so sad that CA couldn't be bothered to program so that when you hit the square button that your line formation would be extremely vulnerable to cav for X amount of seconds. Lazy bastards.



Even worse, if you think about it, they implemented a column formation with bonus, but to rush up release they did not finalize it. Criminal, a game about napoleonic warfare without a column. But man, we have buttons of thousand of uniforms detailed in high resolution, that is what people like.

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Chromey » Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:53 pm

instead of being super duper cryptic with your perfect sqaure size why not just make it so that infantry must be in column to form sqaure. Infantry in column to not fire as well as those in line
so it would make it alot easier to recognize a unit that is ready to form square and also have reduced fire power. Infantry in column is alot more recognizeable to everybody then this fat square/line formation. I think alot of arguements about lcs in hb would be removed if we just all
agreed to let infantry in column form square instead of this perfect square/ fat line formation you all dream about. Yeah most people put infantry in column to move and charge but thats ok because charging has been nerfed so much in latest version that it wont be as easy to exploit.
The more easier we can define squares in hb the less arguements you will get and the more people will enjoy it. The way the square rule is now IMO is a huge arguable mess! :angry-cussingwhite:
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Ztrain909 » Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:21 am

Chromey, it's not that difficult. Just try and make it look like a box. Don't worry too much about the number of ranks. If it looks like a square box it will be acceptable.

It's not that big of a problem to do, it just takes a little getting used too. You have to remember you " classic heathens" are not used to playing properly.

You could always play using the " Yoyo Rule." That works like a charm, doesn't it Firetight?.............................NOT! Poor Yoyo, his rule never had a chance. :)

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Lord Desaix » Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:34 am

Chromey, it's a matter of approach. We don't have a column formation so what you ask is not clear as well. Let me explain again why LCS increases realism at the cost of some arguements which by the way on our group are now nonexistent. Everybody has now a clear picture of how LCS work and why it works. In fact we have introduced another rule to increase realism which is the "No cavalry charge/move through friendly units". This latter is even more effective to offer a decent representation of a napoleonic battlefield, but even more challenging to follow.

Back to LCS, so we have a stupid square which let you form square at last second no matter if from tiralleurs, line, road column, you name it. If you take any historical book (I suggest "Imperial Bayonets") you will read that forming square from line was not an easy process: companies had to move a long way, sometimes like in the prussian army with a strict order based on the seniority of captain (incidentally this is way prussian at Auerstadt/Jena did not form any square and in HB prussian pre 1809 line infantry cannot form square), french were the fastest army but still they prefer to first form column of attack and then square. And we talk about a fully trained army, later it became way worse to the point that french after 1807 employed column by division as their main formation. Same for austrian with column masse which for example they used extensively at Aspern/Wagram.

We must figure out that tiralleurs/line/march column never ever tried to form square in the face of a cavalry charge: either they routed or they fired a salvo to repulse cavalry.

Then we asked ourselves: "how can we remove the ability to form instant square from line or march column or tiralleurs (not in classic but in HB you have sometimes light battalions able to act as tiralleurs en grand bande while still retaining the square ability)?"

We could once for all remove square ability but can a napoleonic battlefield exist without a hollow square, at least visually? So our natural answer was to force player to first form a column and then form square. This hollow square you visually get must not always be seen as the perfect squares of the Waterloo movie, but sometimes as a generic formation able to repulse cavalry, something like the closed column. We could accept the insta square from column which still is not a good solution, but, like I wrote, at least acceptable from an historical point of view.

When we put down the rule we said "7 ranks" to have something understandable by anyone, but the original rule statement spoke about a "visual square shape formation". Why? Because it can include any case no matter how big or small the unit size is.

As a collateral result we saw that battlefield started to look more like what we read in battle reports. Players to avoid sudden cavalry charges started to deploy infantry in column and we eventually got that historical trade off between line firepower and column mobility : you want to stay in line to maximise firepower? Ok, fine but be ready to risk a sudden charge. You fancy a more secure formation against cavalry? FIne, you get less muskets in line.

In the end if you form a squared shape column you cannot fail: sometimes it takes more time to zoom on the unit and drag a good column, but usually you must think and prepare your unit in advance to cope with sudden charges. Bang...this means you have discovered the ordre mixte formation, another step towards history, at least for french.

Usually NTW players deploy infantry in 2/3 ranks to maximise fire: if you think to franch formation you can see that attack column had 1/4 the width compared to line. After 1808 it had 1/3 of line width. If we take an average unit of 120 and we divide by 2.5 ranks you get an ingame front of 48 men in line.

48 * 0,33 (1/3 is the average ratio between line and column) = 16 so we get that an avarage unit must be 100/16=7.5 ranks that is what we put as minimum to form square but of course if your unit grows, the number of ranks will grow as well. Since we cannot perform all these calculations while playing and we still want to get some fun instead of replicate the neverending discussions of board games or figurines, we wrote "SQUARED SHAPE FORMATION" to cut a long story short. I hope now is more clear why 5 or 6 or even 7 ranks is not enough to say a unit is formed in column and thus can form insta square.

If you have a line in a quite place and you press square, nobody will ever complain because we assume you have plenty of time to form column. But if your line is close to the enemy or in a hot area we pretend that you first form column to represent the more time needed to form square from line. Sometimes this turns into a chain route where your brigade formed in line is caught by a flank charge. You will never replicate the great charges of Marengo, Albuera or Eylau with classic system, but you can have them with LCS.

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby DOC » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:37 pm

Two distinct memories pop to mind about your last comment Desaix, the first was the massed charge of heavies on Friedland by the French, a glorious sight that both teams actually enjoyed seeing, yes even the team that was on the receiving end. Also a massed charge by the French cav at montmirail. Neither of these charges would have succeeded on classic, but in HB'S cavalry have a purpose more true to their historical counterparts.

P.S. Please don't take this as dogging classic because I'm not, I still enjoy classic games and I know how tough it has been to try and balance cav towards the more popular classic game modes.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Lord Gunner24 » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:44 pm

With several years "hindsight" this rule should have been called, line/square......forget the column, as it's that bit that can cause confusion............if in line or column, or fat line, or anything else......and you want to go to a square, why not.........change to a shape that looks like a SQUARE, and then hit the square button.

Not too hard really.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Chromey » Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:15 pm

http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc ... 3BD9B07B9/

your MR. Desaix has claimed that this french line on the right should not have formed square because? Its not square shaped enough? It perhaps looks like a triangle to him?
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby CG piratul_negru » Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:53 pm

Some people deserve an answer some don`t, we have to ask ourselves to which category we belong.

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Chromey » Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:21 am

Gents after taking that picture into mspaint and drawing around the outlines of the unit and studying it at leisure.. I have come the conclusion that the infantry unit in question was in more of a rectangle then a square. Thus I have agree with you Lord Desaix on your judgement that the infantry unit was not in the right with you and your colleagues style of rules.

I from now on will play my hb's where infantry must be in column and have every one facing forwards to be able to square. I made a mistake in that game because in the heat of the battle the square looked right to me but it was off by a few ranks. If you force infantry to BE in column and not square to form SQUARES then I think there will be a lot less grief. It will be easier to recognize and it will force infantry that want to be able to square to force column and thus reduce their firepower like intended and make it more easier to be noticed by all participants that the unit will be about to form a SQUARE. Hell even the rule Line Column Square has the world Column in it! 100ish men must be in lines of 7 and 200 ish men must be in lines of 10 who the heck has time to count all that in a real time game? CA should have handle that bullshit not us. Keep it simpler thats what I say and what I will do.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby DOC » Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:15 pm

But thats what we do, as long as it looks square shape and all the little sprite men are closed up and formed then you can hit the square button, if its not then you let the cav hit them. Take this as being the vagaries of war, maybe a wrong command was called out or certain pivot men were dead and the new guy made a mistake, (these all happened IRL by the way), so your poor guys get smashed by the cavalry, this is why more forethought must go into movements of units.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Sloop » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:13 pm

If an HB could be played without an encyclopedia of rules, endless accusations, and never ending volumes of discussion, I would play them more.

Historical battles are not accurate simulations and Classics are even less accurate. The difference is playability.

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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby stilgar » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:30 pm

Sloop wrote: If an HB could be played without an encyclopedia of rules,

Is it really an encyclopedia? VP-LOC+LCS is the core, the rest can be viewed as gentlemen agreement and can be applied or ignored selectively by mutual agreement of all involved.

Sloop wrote: ... endless accusations,

I play 1-2 HBs a week and I never hear such accusations in my address and I hardly ever accuse anyone of breaking rules. If I see that a given player formally accepts the rules and then clearly and repeatedly disregards them, I will just avoid playing with him/her. Problem solved.

Sloop wrote: ... and never ending volumes of discussion,

Well, this is what forums are for. If you mean in-battle discussions, I do not think the level is any higher than in a classic battle.

Sloop wrote: ... I would play them more.

If you would then better in company of your clan mates or players you can trust. It's just a little bit different from the ghetto LOC game, is it not?

On a general note, good to see an increased level of interest in HB gaming lately. These scenario's are quite an achievement and although I am big fun of HB rules (not because I like rules, but because those rules are necessary to play this game properly), I am glad to see players loading and playing them, and at least make an effort to understand and try the rules proposed for HB.

We can have a long discussion about nature of the rules and the best way to play HBs , but the bottom line is that mutual trust and good will from all involved is prerequisite of a good HB game (and any MP game).
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Chromey » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:56 pm

DOC wrote:But thats what we do, as long as it looks square shape....



Yes I thought my French lights were in square shape but under closer examination I learned it was wrong. It caused alot of heart ache and grief. If the rule was for infantry to be in column to form square then this would never happen. Maybe you HB Zealots can tell after a while what exactly WHAT square is ''squareable'' but for the new blood it will be much easier to make squares from Columns. Columns are easier to spot then squares. Less chance for battle field
mistake from HB noobs like myself.

Also every one seems to march around in fat squares anyways when cav shows up so they can from squares quickly. This makes it so their infantry can still keep up their fire power and shoot cav as they charge. If a unit is in column their fire power from the front would be more closer to a square which is what were trying to simulate with LCS.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby DOC » Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:25 am

I think there is some misinterpretation of what a column is, yes a marching column on a road is quite long and thin but when columns are referred to in battle it's how the companies line up one behind the other which in actual fact is more square shape rather than the long column. The word column is only denoting that the companies follow on one after the other. The frontage can be changed by column by half companies and so forth, more so for moving through difficult terrain, normally in battle it would be the spacing between companies that would be changed depending on the tactical situation. This is why hb columns look square shape most of the time.
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Re: Battle of Heilsberg (1807)

Postby Chromey » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:52 pm

We can pause battles and count how many lines are in your regiment before you can square or

you can just say for infantry to form square from thin columns. Which is easier?

What is your arguement against forming Square from Column from Line. SCL=LCS
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