Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

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Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby turcoman » Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:34 am

I've noticed couple of times that some players from Grognards clan are forming illegal squares in HB battles with LCS rules, yet claiming that it is legal. It seems not like big deal yet the illegal squares are effecting the battle so hard as cav morales are too sensitive.

I kindly suggest illegal squarers to have a look at that amazing picture, the picture that explains Napoleonic period best. Its all about balance, if a unit wants mobility or firepower, then it must take the risk of being charged by cavalry. If a unit is running, they must be vulnerable to enemy cavalry, (because they should wait till the last men, and all taken their positions before forming square). If a unit wants more firepower, by having a line formation, then they must be vulnerable to enemy cavalry. Its a perfect balance !

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Quote from Desaix's HB tutorial, about LCS rule:
Spoiler: show
This house rule states that players can form square only starting from a completelyformed
immobile column. If a unit is deployed in a line, it should be ordered to form
a completely-formed immobile column and only then to form square.
This seems to be the only way to cope with the “warp” speed at which square is
formed in vanilla game and to represent the balance between cavalry and infantry in a
reasonably accurate way. For example, local superiority in cavalry will force the
opponent to withdraw or deploy in columns and, as a result, become more vulnerable
to fire from infantry in line or artillery fire. This rule is also meant to stimulate the
player to form square in advance as soon as a charge is expected and not to resort to
the unrealistic last-moment and instant square formation (issue never really addressed
by CA).



Lots of times it happens the same, the player runs his infantry, and when the enemy cav is close by, he just hits the halt button, immediately after halt button forming the magical squares. Thats not how you play LCS. If the unit is running, it must completely stop, all the men must be in their positions, and form the perfectly square coloumn, the unit must be idle, and after all these conditions are satisfied, forming a square is allowed. If you are running in coloumn formation, it doesnt mean you can press halt and then form the quick square. You should wait for your men to form the square coloumn first. Yet sadly, some HB players of Grognards clan ignore, (or maybe dont know) this rule.

If you could run in coloumn and form a square in miliseconds, whats the difference between the quicksquare and LCS square ? Just a single halt button ?

Desaix should be thanked million times for creating such amazing idea, both LCS and HB's. And i think when he was introducing LCS (or who ever introduced first, not sure, i am only playing hb's for 2-3 years) he wasnt intending running coloumns that can form instant squares after miliseconds of halting after run, was he ?

Another thing is the definition of "coloumn", the rules states that unit has at least 7 lines, of course smaller units are exceptions, yet sometimes we see a large unit in 5 lines forming square.

I hope to play more HB games with less violations of LCS, the core rule.

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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby DOC » Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:01 am

Have to say that LCS always causes heated debates during and after battles but it is the best system to use, just unfortunate that you seem to be having these problems. FYI there was a lengthy discussion quite a long while ago about introducing a new rule. That rule was for their being no running allowed, period, with the exclusion of skirmishers. However we didn't want to encumber people with yet another rule but it is one that should be there because formations didn't run because control and cohesion was lost. (I know there are instances of units running historically but they are few and far between, ie not normal practise). The only time that running would be allowed is when charging into melee. I for one would still like to see this as a rule.
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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby Lord Desaix » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:00 pm

DOC wrote:Have to say that LCS always causes heated debates during and after battles but it is the best system to use, just unfortunate that you seem to be having these problems. FYI there was a lengthy discussion quite a long while ago about introducing a new rule. That rule was for their being no running allowed, period, with the exclusion of skirmishers. However we didn't want to encumber people with yet another rule but it is one that should be there because formations didn't run because control and cohesion was lost. (I know there are instances of units running historically but they are few and far between, ie not normal practise). The only time that running would be allowed is when charging into melee. I for one would still like to see this as a rule.


I agree with Turcoman's view about LCS, this does not mean I never broke LCS strict rule in the heat of battle without waiting for column to be completely idle (easy to understand as all men make a stand like movement and you get the column perfectly formed).
Of course if this happens repetitevely this means probably player doesn't know exactly how LCS should be performed so thanx to Turcoman because "repetita juvant".

@DOC
I'm still undecided whether or not to forbid infantry to run. This can be easily accomplished by setting the RUN attribute to FALSE. This does not affect charge speed (maybe we can increase charge radius) or ROUTING speed. My only doubt is about french, they seemed to employ double pace lot of time especially during the glory years thus removing running speed for them looks like unhistorical.

But we can make a testing battle to see how NO RUN turns out. Another solution would be to increase running speed fatigue to an extent that really punishes running unit for even a short time.

On a side note LCS was first introduced by Lord Gunner in the NBC clan and promptly adopted by me as official rule for HB to enhace the trade off between column/line firepower and partially decrease the overpower of insta square since many nations used a closed column to repulse cavalry instead of a proper hollow square.

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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby DougieJ » Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:21 pm

Hello gents,

No doubt the LCS rules is one of the more difficult rules to get just right all of the time.
I am not sure we ever really had a very strict interpretation that the square should not be formed until the halted column had actually performed the very last dressing of lines manoeuvre, I always tried very hard to make sure I adhered to this but did on a few occasions failed miserably :sad: importantly however i never got into a blazing row about it, the key as is so often the case in HB's is a group of players willing to forgive and forget the odd mistake and move on, if they know the player in question always plays his HB's with the very best of intentions then there is no harm done. Off course adopting this kind of attitude to the game is a little easier for some than others, it takes all sorts.

Cheers DJ :wink:

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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby turcoman » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:49 am

Certainly when playing with HB veterans like you Doggy, the quality of the coloumns were extra :) When you are charging with cav to those kind of players, you are sure that you will not face a sort of strange square. I personally witnessed couple of times that those old guards of HB games were not forming square just because 1 or 2 men were isolated from the rest of the unit with 150 men, due to terrain or being blocked/intercepted by other units. Yet nowadays quite often i started to observe (not once, but over and over, and not accidentally, but on purpose) some changes on the definition of "idle, perfectly formed column" amongst HB players.

Btw will you return to the battlefields Doggy mate ?
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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby Lord Gunner24 » Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:56 am

I am not sure we ever really had a very strict interpretation that the square should not be formed until the halted column had actually performed the very last dressing of lines manoeuvre, I always tried very hard to make sure I adhered to this but did on a few occasions failed miserably :sad: importantly however i never got into a blazing row about it, the key as is so often the case in HB's is a group of players willing to forgive and forget the odd mistake and move on,

Hello Dougie, pleased to see your still looking in now and again, like me !!.

This WAS the main, most important thing about LCS, not that you had to be perfect 100% of the time, but that you HAD to be perfect on NOT DELIBERATELY CHEATING the "rule",,,,,,,,there is a lot of difference to having the odd mistake, and not even bothering to try..........the big thick line was the biggest problem. I always thought if it looked like a square, it was a square, if it looked like a thick line, it was a thick line, which of course did not even look like a square.

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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby DOC » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:05 am

Just to go back to what Dougie said, I have even witnessed and have done this myself, where someone has accidently clicked the square button or had it pointed out that there troops weren't in column properly that said player has then taken his troops out of square and back into line to allow the cavalry charge develop as it should have. For me that's the kind of fellas I like and want to play HB'S with. So when are you coming back Dougie. Davidov has already said he is coming back into the fray once he gets his new pc at the end of the month.

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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby Lord Lancier » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:35 pm

Especially with the classic i think. No doubt its easier with HBs. I remember the battle where many rules including LCS was used and discussed afterwards and Gunner then had to decide to close ntw3 part of nbc. Didnt know it would be a problem with HBs but i see it can be from time to time, still ... interesting.
DougieJ wrote:Hello gents,

No doubt the LCS rules is one of the more difficult rules to get just right all of the time.
I am not sure we ever really had a very strict interpretation that the square should not be formed until the halted column had actually performed the very last dressing of lines manoeuvre, I always tried very hard to make sure I adhered to this but did on a few occasions failed miserably :sad: importantly however i never got into a blazing row about it, the key as is so often the case in HB's is a group of players willing to forgive and forget the odd mistake and move on, if they know the player in question always plays his HB's with the very best of intentions then there is no harm done. Off course adopting this kind of attitude to the game is a little easier for some than others, it takes all sorts.

Cheers DJ :wink:
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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby turcoman » Sun Feb 01, 2015 1:58 am

I still remember v2 or v3 HB games with you gentlemen (though have not involved in many of those), and no doubts those games were examples of the highest level of strategy that Total War series have ever reached. And it is shame that now most of the community know almost nothing about HB... After playing HB, ntw3 classic games feel like NTW vanilla...
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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby Ztrain909 » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:17 pm

turcoman wrote:... After playing HB, ntw3 classic games feel like NTW vanilla...


Amen! Preach it my Polish Coalition brother!

Btw, Imma feelin somethin in the wind. Talked with Davidov yesterday and imma feelin like my precious HB's are gonna come back strong!

p.s. Death to the "ruthless Czech's!"

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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby DougieJ » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:31 pm

Hello gents,

One thing holding me back, the thought of waiting around for an hour and a half for a game to start only for it to crash 30 mins later :cry:

On the other hand HW is still in my opinion going nowhere and listening to all you guys certainly rekindles a flame :biggrin:

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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby Lord Fullin » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:53 am

whu dont we get rid of the square in v6 and stat cavalry accordingly?
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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby stilgar » Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:51 am

DougieJ wrote:Hello gents,

One thing holding me back, the thought of waiting around for an hour and a half for a game to start only for it to crash 30 mins later :cry:

On the other hand HW is still in my opinion going nowhere and listening to all you guys certainly rekindles a flame :biggrin:


Dougie, I think 1v1 and 2v2, even for large battles, is the way to go. It is so much easier to get started and the chance for crash is smaller. You'd have to move more troops, but that would be same for all and would require some proactice. Besides, there are plans for quite a few smaller battles and additional scenario's suitable for 2v2 and 1v1. Hope I threw some oil in that fire of yours :mrgreen:

Lord Fullin wrote:whu dont we get rid of the square in v6 and stat cavalry accordingly?


Hmm, you are clearly not interested in winning any popularity contest this year, Fullin :lol: ...

In principle, this would open some interesting options up. If it is possible to make column sufficiently resilient to cav attacks, and in that way (at least) give it a clear-cut advantage compared to line, that would be very interesting direction to take.
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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby Lord Fullin » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:08 pm

Hmm, you are clearly not interested in winning any popularity contest this year, Fullin :lol: ...


I dont understand what do you mean by "this year"
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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby stilgar » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:37 pm

Lord Fullin wrote:
Hmm, you are clearly not interested in winning any popularity contest this year, Fullin :lol: ...


I dont understand what do you mean by "this year"


Hmm, that does add an unwanted twist to my phrase. Anyway, that part is nothing but reflection of a blind hope of mine for a square-free v6 this year already. :smile:
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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby Lord Desaix » Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:05 pm

Lord Fullin wrote:whu dont we get rid of the square in v6 and stat cavalry accordingly?


Haha Fullin, this was JC's goal 4 years ago :mrgreen: but most Lordz answered "a nap game without square is not a nap game" and honestly I still think the same.

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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby Lord Fullin » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:28 pm

lets look deeper into units formations....
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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby Lord Desaix » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:34 am

Lord Fullin wrote:lets look deeper into units formations....


Without LCS I would have insisted to death to remove square formation.

What is funny, but you prolly know that already, is that CA actually included column formation in the special ability of infantry unit, set a bonus for that but at last second did not include it in the code because AI could not handle it.
A great respect for MP players indeed :confused:

What really shocked me was their final answer years ago refusing to just fix those couple of bug: insta square and missing column formation. We would have had an almost perfect engine, so glad I've been never wasted a single cent on their product since that day.

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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby Lord Lancier » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:16 pm

HB club got mad. Veterans on return ? ;]
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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby DOC » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:36 pm

Lancier wrote:HB club got mad. Veterans on return ? ;]
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The veterans march. The sword is down from the mantle piece, the horses are saddled and the old favourite pipe is firmly lodged in the mouth. Vive la gloire, vive l'Empreuer.
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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby DougieJ » Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:22 pm

Hello gents,

My women has left me, my sword is rusting, my powder grows damp, time for the last Huzza ?? :biggrin:

Where might I bump in to some old warriors ? :wink:

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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby DOC » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:44 am

DougieJ wrote:Hello gents,

My women has left me, my sword is rusting, my powder grows damp, time for the last Huzza ?? :biggrin:

Where might I bump in to some old warriors ? :wink:


What, not that fine filly you picked up in Spain at talavera, as for the sword, I have a spare one, took it off some frog with lots of braid and medals. Mind you he didn't want to give me it, had to run the chap through first, shame really cause the poor buggers had already taken a fine thrashing. As for your powder, well we will just have to fight somewhere warm.

Got carried away there.
I think Friday night is a good chance to get an HB mate and 8m trying to organise an hb for Sunday night. Just check the h forum bud.
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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby Lord Lancier » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:01 am

You flirt with it sir, it does ;]
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DougieJ wrote:On the other hand HW is still in my opinion going nowhere ...
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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby mafala » Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:52 pm

DougieJ wrote:Hello gents,

My women has left me, my sword is rusting, my powder grows damp, time for the last Huzza ?? :biggrin:

Where might I bump in to some old warriors ? :wink:


Let me see what I can do for you! ok.....first and most important: I could get you a new woman, but I don´t do that, so she can´t leave you, what would happen for sure!

As to the rest of your deficits: We need cannonfodder for HB, so you look pretty well prepared! As an alternative for crying "Huzza" i´d like to suggest you crying "cider", "ale" or something else with the same motivational power to concentrate all hostile activities on you.

Welcome back, Monsignore!!!!!

Mafala

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Re: Some notes about illegal squares in LCS games

Postby DougieJ » Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:25 pm

Hello gents,

I wont make tonight but I will be looking in next week, will you be on steam or teamspeak ?


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