HB rules

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FireTight
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Re: HB rules

Postby FireTight » Sat May 23, 2015 6:42 am

Sire wrote:
stilgar wrote:Sire, what do you mean? You can fire from any formation.


fire in formation 2 or 3 line ?
move in formation of 2 or 3 line ?

From what I remember, you can move or shoot in any formation you want. You just need to form a square (real square), before you can form a square (unit's ability).

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Re: HB rules

Postby Sire » Tue May 26, 2015 1:55 pm

Only I can form a square to repel the attack of cavalry if the unit is formed in a square (unit's ability). If the unit is formed in a line, i can't form a square to repel the attack of cavalry, i need before to form the unit in a square ability and then form a square and perhaps is to late for the unit. Is right?

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Re: HB rules

Postby Tac » Tue May 26, 2015 2:40 pm

You just couldn't make it up could you.I think this is part of the reason for fragmentation amongst lots of other things.

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Re: HB rules

Postby Lord Gunner24 » Tue May 26, 2015 4:12 pm

I gotta smile at the "cube" reference.........first time I heard talk of a cube in ntw3.

I believe a cube is a 3d square ?.

http://www.kidsmathgamesonline.com/fact ... cubes.html
A cube is a three dimensional shape that features all right angles and a height, width and depth that are all equal.
A cube has 6 square faces.
A cube has 8 points (vertices).
A cube has 12 edges.
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DOC
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Re: HB rules

Postby DOC » Tue May 26, 2015 4:31 pm

Think of it 5his way putting your troops into square shape represents a closed column now the reasoning for doing this, which many cannot grasp, this forces a time delay in being able to press the unit ability square button. The reason for this two fold, 1, it makes cavalry more viable ie they don't die on insta squares and 2 it makes you think how you move your infantry when there is a threat of cavalry ie if you do not react to said threat and prepare your units appropriately then they will be caught in line and die horribly. Simple really.
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Lord Cosak
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Re: HB rules

Postby Lord Cosak » Tue May 26, 2015 5:33 pm

I almost never do squares in HB, shooting at incoming cav is effective enough.

What HB players don't do, and classic players often do, is embedded artillery. To me that's the main gameplay difference. Besides that, LOC and HB have a similar interesting approach.

One funny fact, is that classic is actually slower than HB battles, especially cavalry. HB Friedland or Montmirail can be chargefest with France, which would be impossible on classic.

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Re: HB rules

Postby DOC » Tue May 26, 2015 8:07 pm

But that's the whole point, to give cavalry it's role back instead of being stopped dead by insta square from line. If the player controlling the infantry doesn't prepare for the threat of cavalry then he WILL get steamrolled. Reille at waterloo anyone.
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Re: HB rules

Postby Lord Lancier » Tue May 26, 2015 10:05 pm

Hello Lepic you there ? ;> I told you not to forget turning mics off. :>>
Lord Cosak wrote:One funny fact, is that classic is actually slower than HB battles, especially cavalry. HB Friedland or Montmirail can be chargefest with France, which would be impossible on classic.
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Re: HB rules

Postby Lord Cosak » Wed May 27, 2015 8:10 am

DOC wrote:But that's the whole point, to give cavalry it's role back instead of being stopped dead by insta square from line. If the player controlling the infantry doesn't prepare for the threat of cavalry then he WILL get steamrolled. Reille at waterloo anyone.


Actually I wrote exactly the opposite : to me the insta-squares are not a problem because shooting at cav without forming squares is enough to repel it (most of the times). Moreover fire-in-melee happens often in HB, some players are even especially skilled for that... THAT is the main issue of HB, and LCS rules doesn't say anything against that.

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Re: HB rules

Postby DOC » Wed May 27, 2015 10:15 am

But as I have said before Cosak, historically infantry in line 3 or 4 ranks deep could repel a 'local' cavalry attack from the front with volleys, however do not mistake my meaning, I do not mean a massed cavalry attack. Saying that the infantry in line are taking a risk and it could and did go horribly wrong. Just a little story i read from a french cavalry officers memoirs. He formed a sqn directly facing a prussian battalion in line, he charged they stayed in line ready to deliver a volley in the face but the french commander had hidden his 2nd sqn in dead ground and they took the prussians in the flank, that was the danger of staying in line against cav. As for firing in melee alot of this problem is attributed to the hold ground/formation button. Unfortunately it is a problem that is not easily resolved, however I do know that quite a few players had a gentleman agreement that if their infantry were firing in melee they would turn off the fire at will mode, difficult I know but it can be done. Just as a side note quite a lot of tweaks have been tried to solve this problem but none of them have really worked.
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Re: HB rules

Postby Vilain de Bourg-en-Bresse » Wed May 27, 2015 7:53 pm

DOC wrote:As for firing in melee alot of this problem is attributed to the hold ground/formation button.


Why not simply disabling it in the DB tables, if this actually solved the problem? This unit stance isn't needed really, is it?
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Re: HB rules

Postby Lord Cosak » Wed May 27, 2015 8:46 pm

Vilain de Bourg-en-Bresse wrote:if this actually solved the problem


It didn''t.

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Re: HB rules

Postby DOC » Wed May 27, 2015 10:00 pm

Yep its a difficult bugger to sort out.
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Re: HB rules

Postby Lord Lepic » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:02 pm


NAPOLEON's Eagles [NTW3]: Historical Battle [HB], the Line Column Square [LCS] Rule.

An infantry square, also known as a hollow square, is a combat formation an infantry unit forms in close order usually when threatened with cavalry attack.

An infantry unit deployed in any formation, should be ordered to form a completely immobile pre-square column and only then ordered to form square.

Line Column Square [LCS] Rule

Cannot Click the form square button until you have taken the following steps

1 - Ordered your infantry unit into the pre-square column formation
2 - Waited for the infantry unit to be completely immobile
3 - Ordered your unit to form square by clicking the square button

Cannot form INSTANTA squares
Cannot advance or move units in pre-square column formations, these are immobile only
Cannot form square from a mobile column or non formed pre-square column formation

It's meant to stimulate to form a square in advance as soon as a charge is expected and not to resort to the unrealistic last moment INSTANTA square

Local superiority in cavalry will force the opponent to withdraw or deploy in columns and, as a result, become more vulnerable to fire from infantry in line or artillery fire.

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TestingNTW3
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Re: HB rules

Postby TestingNTW3 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:27 pm

I just read those rules. The main comment is that the game has enough about it to add things that are arbitrary, not controlled by the game and cannot be really enforced. It just add confusion and interpretation not needed. Historically they are also not founded. Some further comment below:

LCS SQUARE: Square can be formed only by a column with at least 7 ranks and with a squared visual shape ( no line rotated 90 degrees)
When player hits the button, men must be idle and aligned in column and not marching. almost impossible to control or police, not very realistic. Just push the order button, and whatever happens happens. Those soldier should have learned their drill at the Academy barracks and be able to go in square as soon as the squadron leader shouts the order. Especially Elite troops, they should know the drill.

NO EMBEDDED ARTILLERY: Unlimbered firing artillery CANNOT be intermixed with static infantry (exception 3lber regimental artillery). Infantry can move through artillery train and crew to defend the guns but not stop on battery when battery is firing. it often happens, for example in Castiglione or the pyramids.

NO SNIPING GENERAL: No direct fire on generals by artillery.Napoleon was just missed twice in Egypt Campaign by artillery shot. He always said he was lucky to be only 5"2. Uxbridge lost his leg at Waterloo. So just shoot at the General, their job to show leadership and mettle on the battle ground. Napoleon crossed himself the bridge at Arcole in front of the troop and towards the canister battery.

NO CHARGES THROUGH FRIENDLY UNITS: Charging cavalry through friendly units is forbidden.this happened many times historically, desperate situations requires desperate measures, just charge in the pack.

MAX ONE LINE UNIT PER BUILDING: Just one unit can occupy a building. Loc unit does not count. Max two unit can assault a building, but LOC must be assaulted by at least 2 line units (no tiralleurs or skirmishers unit).different building are of different sizes. Number should adapt to capacity and number of storey and if you really want that building, 10, 12 units, why not. A colonel won't count how many people are in a building and adjust the number of squadrons going in...it allows for mistakes: too many or too little

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Re: HB rules

Postby stilgar » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:30 pm

Here is a more recent version of HB rules with additional explanation of the reasoning behind introducing the rules.
viewtopic.php?f=157&t=15947

A few comments though.
On LCS rule. This rule is specifically meant as a fix to the CA's instant square (which is complete nonsense). It is based on the idea that forming square from a line was historically much more difficult maneuver as compared to forming square from a column. It is perhaps not the most practical rule, but in a group of like minded players it works just dine. As a desirable side effect, this rule gives a clear-cut bonus to column formation, which CA never bothered to do. Of course, column will not give any mobility or morale bonus compared to line, but it would allow a more quick response to cavalry threat.

No embedded artillery rule refers to formed up infantry (battalion or regiment) standing in the middle of operating battery. As for your example with the massive squares in the battle of Piramides, only a part of artillery positioned just outside square could operated as far as I know. As for infantry or cava supporting arty, those normally were smaller loose formations positioned just behind or on flanks of batteries.

No sniping general is not an essential rule, more like gentlemen agreement. It is meant to minimize the rather large penalty effect on the army morale in very early stages of the battle by directing cannon fire at general. In practice players will just warn the opponent about danger for his general from long-range artillery fire. Players can still (and will) try to take your general down by any other means.

No charge through friendly units is meant specifically to counter a usual in vanilla and also classic NTW3 attack of own cavalry from behind and through own formed-up unit. This is completely unrealistic and I do not accept your comment as a valid argument. Attacking though own artillery, for instance, or though own routing units (formation broken!) is allowed. There is no problem if there is a slight overlap between units attacking from different directions; that is largely unavoidable in this game.

Max one unit per building rule is based on two observations: (1) a unit in game is a battalion; so, stacking two or more units in a single building looks unrealistic (even in large buildings like farms smaller formations were deployed to hold the building) (2) sending many units in a building could cause lag and also players dropping out of the game, which is undesirable. So, this rule does not prohibit fighting in buildings (those were important events on many battlefields), but it just regulate them to an extent.

As a final remark, the above rules are designed to compensate for the flaws of the engine and make battlefield look a bit more like a Napoleonic battlefield, and not make life of players sour. It does require some effort and trust between all involved, but is by no means mission impossible. I played countless Hb games by this rules and many were greatest experience I got in any Nap War game.
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Re: HB rules

Postby Lord Desaix » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:17 pm

Never understood why some bother to criticize and pretending to change other group house rules when you have vanilla with no rules. Simply play that and everyone is happy. But Stilgar pretty much sum this up in a diplomatic manner. :wink: If one thinks that cavalry charge through the backs of their comrades was the norm or square was magically formed at warp speed ...well classic gameplay can better adapt to his gamestyle.

The stupidity of the square instant bonus is so evident that also in classic NTW3 they did prefer to get rid of that formation but for elite units, we just think that forcing LCS was a better historical solution than forbidding for example french line at Austerlitz, Auerstadt or british line at Waterloo from forming square.


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