Swedish roster needs fixing

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Swedish roster needs fixing

Postby imonoz » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:07 am

(EDIT: READ THE LAST POST MADE BY ME TO SEE WHAT I CONSIDER NEEDS FIXING. AT REQUEST I'LL GIVE FURTHER DETAILS CONCERNING MY THOUGHTS AND WILL PROVIDE SOURCES IF NECESSARY)

There's many errors in the Swedish roster and I want to help you fix it until the next update (whenever that might be).

First off, there were no regiments with the names "Andra Lifgarde" and "Finska Lifgarde" (elite units) by this time, the correct names would be "Konungens (or kungliga) Andra gardesregemente(t)" and "Finska gardesregementet" (a regiment by the name "Andra Lifgardet" existed only in 1818-, after the Napoleonic wars). And these units were not equivalent or better than the "Svea Lifgarde" which was the most valuable unit in the Swedish army at the time. So it kinda surprises me that the "Andra Lifgarde" is the best unit in the mod..

There was no regiment called the "Göta lifgarde fotjägare" (the light unit). Similar to above, "Göta Lifgarde" appeared in name almost 100 years later, in 1894. The closest you'll get in name during this time was "Konungens Göta gardesregemente", these were the predecessor of the "Svenska gardesregementet" but they were line units, not light (as far as I know). It would perhaps be better if you changed the name of this unit to "Livregementsbrigadens lätta infanteribataljon", a light life-unit which existed until 1808 before it changed name and became grenadiers.

The "Andra Lifgarde", "Finska Lifgarde" and "Göta Lifgarde" are infact the same... only at different years (Göta Lifgarde almost 100 years later as noted above). So we have three units that are more or less one.

I've also noticed some strange claims which looks like Finnish bias to me, one example is the description of the "Värmlands Fältjägare" which follows: "The Värmlands Fältjägare was a special unit in the Swedish army that existed almost exclusively of Finnish immigrants in western Sweden who were famous for being great...". Even if there were many soldiers with Finnish surnames in the Värmlands Fältjägare they can not be considered "Finnish immigrants" as forest Finns as they were referred as immigrated in the 16th and 17th centuries and had been assimilated into Sweden long before the Napoleonic wars, lol. It would almost be the same to say that half of the Finnish regiments consisted of Swedish immigrants, because they had Swedish names and spoke Swedish; difference is the soldiers in the Värmlands Fältjägare actually spoke Swedish. The claim is a little bit funny and cute at the same time.. I wouldn't be surprised if this whole roster was made by a Finn.

Here's a picture where the errors with the Swedish troop names can be seen: Image https://imgur.com/B1NxuHg
Last edited by imonoz on Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Swedish roster needs fixing

Postby imonoz » Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:42 pm

The light units, or the jägare in the Swedish army, was made up of one company from each line regiment, with the exception of "Värmlands fotjägarbataljon". This means there was one company of jägare from each of the following regiments (Swedish national troops):

* Svea livgarde (* either this one, or the "Livregementsbrigadens lätta infanterikår" are incorrectly portrayed as "Göta lifgarde fotjägare" in the mod)
* Jönköpings regemente
* Västmanlands regemente
* Livgrenadjärregementet
* Dalregementet
* Västerbottens regemente (* as skirmisher/jägare)
* Upplands regemente
* Hälsinge regemente
* Kalmar regemente
* Skaraborgs regemente
* Elfsborgs regemente (* as skirmisher/jägare)
* Närke-Värmlands regemente (* [?] it's a little bit confusing here as there's both a light and skirmisher unit of Värmland in the mod. If the light unit is based on this regiment it should be called "Lätt infanteri Närke-Värmland" and not "Lätt infanteri Värmland")
* Södermanlands regemente
* Västgöta-Dals regemente
* Jämtlands infanteriregemente (* as light/fotjägare)
* Kronobergs regemente
* Bohusläns regemente

And then there is also the Livregementsbrigadens lätta infanterikår (* either this one, or the "Svea livgarde" are incorrectly portrayed as "Göta lifgarde fotjägare" in the mod)

(* = the light company is currently in the mod)

Then there's the "Värmlands fotjägarbataljon" which is a skirmisher/jägare unit in the mod (and also the light unit?). I still don't know which historic counterpart the "Göta lifgarde fotjägare" in the mod is supposed to be, as noted above; there was not regiment with that name at the time... My guess is that they should instead either be "Svea lifgarde fotjägare" (as there was one company of fotjägare from the Svea Livgarde) OR "Livregementsbrigadens lätta infanterikår" which also had somewhat of an elite status. It shouldn't be "Göta Lifgarde" nonetheless.

Here's a good book about the "fotjägare (light units)" which might be useful to you, page 70: https://www.sfhm.se/contentassets/84a6e4f1b2ce4e2b96c4ba578a41c503/sfhm-skriftserie_svenska-armens-uniformer-del2-infanteriet.pdf

Fotjägare were light units, jägare were skirmishers. I still don't know exactly how these worked together in the regiments, it could be that the company of fotjägare (light) from whatever regiment could also act as jägare/skirmishers (someone tell me here if you know the answer please).

I also couldn't help but notice that there are Drabants in the Essen corps? I haven't found any information regarding Drabant troops in Pomerania at the time. If I'm not mistaken the Drabants were palace guard at the time and had been so since the Great Northern War, I highly doubt they were shipped to Germany.

I hope this helps.
Last edited by imonoz on Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Swedish roster needs fixing

Postby imonoz » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:05 pm

Some ideas for additional units:

* "Konungens Svenska gardesregemente (or Svenska gardesregementet)" there is the Finnish guard-regiment in the mod (incorrectly named "Finska lifgarde") so why not the Swedish counterpart? My idea here is to just replace the "Andra lifgarde" (as this regiment was, as you know, created out of troops from, among others, Finska and Svenska gardesregementen and only played a minor role in the war) currently in the mod, with the "Svenska gardesregementet".

* "Drottningens livregemente till fot (or Drottningens livregemente)" the German based regiment which fought against France in the Pomeranian war; could be part of the Essen corp.

* "le regiment du roi" a Swedish regiment made up of French prisoners of war captured in 1807. The regiment saw very limited combat and only consisted of 2-300 men but still. It was shipped to Germany in the last phase of the war so it could be part of Essen's army.

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Re: Swedish roster needs fixing

Postby Lord Davn » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:42 pm

Please post a list of the Swedish unit names that need correction and I will add them to the v86 campaign update.
Existing unit name - followed by the correct unit name
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Re: Swedish roster needs fixing

Postby imonoz » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:51 am

Lord Davn wrote:Please post a list of the Swedish unit names that need correction and I will add them to the v86 campaign update.
Existing unit name - followed by the correct unit name


Elite units:

* "Finska lifgarde" > "Finska gardet" (Full name "Finska gardesregementet". There was only one infantry regiment being lifgarde at the time; the Svea lifgarde)

* "Andra lifgarde" > "Svenska gardet" (Full name "Konungens Svenska gardesregemente". There's no need for the "Second guard" as it saw limited action after 1809 and was just the successor of the Finnish and Swedish guards. Better name this one the "Swedish guard" as that unit has almost the same uniform and is not in the mod (it doesn't make sense if you build your army with Finska gardet, Göte gardet (light) and Andra gardet since, neither of the former ones existed at the time of the Andra gardet, which is why it's just better to remove it). Don't forget to swap the stats so that the Svea lifgarde (as it was better) gets the present "Andra lifgarde" stats! Here's a picture with both the Swedish and Finnish guards http://carlotta.malmo.se/carlotta-mmus/web/image/zoom/168667/MM%20060023:041.jpg.

Light unit:

* "Göta lifgarde fotjägare" > "Lätt infanteri Lifregementet" (As earlier stated, there was no regiment with the name "Göta lifgarde" at the time, there was however a unit called "Konungens Göta gardesregemente" which changed name to "Konungens Svenska gardesregemente" in 1806 (the regiment I suggested above), but without having the actual Göta guard regiment in the mod I don't think it makes sense to have their light company in it. This unit could instead be the life-regiment of light troops (Livregementsbrigadens lätta infanteribataljon), pictured on page 63 https://www.sfhm.se/contentassets/84a6e4f1b2ce4e2b96c4ba578a41c503/sfhm-skriftserie_svenska-armens-uniformer-del2-infanteriet.pdf.

These are the ones I've noticed for now, I have asked an expert on the subject to help me understand the light/skirmisher units in the Swedish army. Only after I get an answer I can see if there's some mixups there as well.
Last edited by imonoz on Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Swedish roster needs fixing

Postby Lord Davn » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:23 pm

Thanks for the update, I will make correction to our campaign text files. Looks like our former Swedish army expert was not as good as he claimed.
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Re: Swedish roster needs fixing

Postby imonoz » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:34 pm

I've made a list of all infantry units in the Swedish army that are currently in the game, all names that have an underline are units that I think needs to be either renamed, edited-and-moved or removed. As some units changed names during the war I've tried picking the ones accurate to the Finnish war of 1808-1809 since this was the main theater of the Swedish army during the Napoleonic wars. I've also removed some doublets (units that are the same but occurs twice, or more, with a different name) to make it more historical correct (SUMMARY furthest down).

Elite:
1 a. Svea lifgarde - the most valuable guard in the Swedish army at the time
1 b. Carl Johann Fleetwood ← Svea lifgarde
2. Andra lifgarde - should be renamed "Svenska gardet"; there's no point of having this unit when it's basically the same as the "Finska gardet"? Should swap stats with "Svea lifgarde" since that one is better.
3. Finska lifgarde - should be renamed "Finska gardet"; without the >lif<.
4. Drabanterna - this unit was a palace guard in Stockholm, should not even be in the game (but I don't really mind).

Light:
1. Göta lifgarde fotjägare - should be renamed "Lätt infanteri Lifregementet" (full name Livregementsbrigadens lätta [light] infanterikår). Göta gardesregemente (as was the correct name) was not light infantry, but guards similar to "Finska gardet". In 1806 the regiment changed name to "Svenska gardet" (look above at Elite). How they looked in 1808, page 63 https://www.sfhm.se/contentassets/84a6e4f1b2ce4e2b96c4ba578a41c503/sfhm-skriftserie_svenska-armens-uniformer-del2-infanteriet.pdf.
2 a. Johan August Sandels ← Lätt infanteri (Savolax)
2 b. Lätt infanteri Savolax
3. Lätt infanteri Värmland - should be removed; the unit already exists in the skirmisher section under the name "Fältjägare Värmland".
4. Johan Adam Cronstedt ← Värvade jägare - should be moved; if you choose this "light" commander you get a unit out of the "värvade" line units called "Värvade jägare Savolax". I'd suggest you remake the Värvade jägare Savolax to be a skirmisher unit (since one Savolax regiment was "lätt [light]" which already exists here). Jägare means skirmisher so this commander along with the unit "Värvade jägare Savolax" belongs in the skirmisher section.
5. Lätt infanteri Nyland
6. Jägare Karelska - this unit, like the name suggests, should be moved and edited to be a skirmisher unit (with all the fitting stats). Basically same story as the "Johan Adam Cronstedt ← Värvade jägare" two steps above and the "Värvade jägare Savolax" in the line section.
7. Lätt infanteri Tavastehus
8. Lätt infanteri Jemtland

Line:
1 a. Carl Johan Adlercreutz ← Värvade infanteri
1 b. Värvade infanteri Adlercreutz
2. Konungens eget värvade infanteri
3. Indelta infanteri Österbotten
4. Värvade jägare Savolax - as already noted in the light section, this unit should be edited and moved into the skirmisher section along with the commander Johan Adam Cronstedt ← Värvade jägare.
5. Indelta infanteri Jemtland - should be removed; the unit already exists in the light section under the name "Lätt infanteri Jemtland" and the regiment was actually made into a light troop in 1770 (source - http://www.faltjagarna.se/historik/). Here's how the troops looked like in 1798 - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Norway_and_Sweden%2C_1797-1799_%28NYPL_b14896507-419108%29.tiff/lossy-page1-3665px-Norway_and_Sweden%2C_1797-1799_%28NYPL_b14896507-419108%29.tiff.jpg.
6. Indelta infanteri Björneborg
7. Indelta infanteri Södra skåne
8. Vargering infanteri Kajana
9. Indelta infanteri Södermanland
10. Indelta infanteri Vestgötadal
11. Indelta infanteri Vestmanland
12. Indelta infanteri Norra skåne
13. Indelta infanteri Kronoberg
14. Indelta infanteri Kalmar
15. Indelta infanteri Jönköping
16. Indelta infanteri Helsinge
17. Indelta infanteri Bohulän
18. Värvade infanteri Vermland - should be removed, the unit already exists in the skirmisher section "Fältjägare Värmland" and there was no "värvat" Värmland regiment that were line infantry at this time, first in 1812 a Värmland regiment of this kind appeared in name, but it was not värvat.
19. Indelta infanteri Uleåborg
20. Värvade infanteri Engelbrechten
21. Värvade infanteri le Royal-Suédois
22. Indelta infanteri Skaraborg
23. Indelta infanteri Vesterbotten
24. Indelta infanteri Nyland - should be renamed "Indelta infanteri Åbo"; Nyland already exists in the light section under the name "Lätt infanteri Nyland". Åbo regiment doesn't exist as line infantry.
25. Indelta infanteri Elfsborg
26. Indelta infanteri Närke - should be renamed "Indelta infanteri Närke-Värmland" since this was the name of the regiment up until 1812 (so a majority of the war). The Wikipedia link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A4rke-V%C3%A4rmland_Regiment.
27. Indelta infanteri Dal - should be renamed "Indelta infanteri Dalarna", Dal is used when you put it first and together with another word. The Dalregiment had an inofficial status of being elite in the army. They were one of the more valuable "indelta" regiments.
28 a. Indelta infanteri Tavastehus - should be removed; Tavastehus already exists in the light section + the skirmisher section.
28 b. Otto von Fieandt ← Indelta infanteri should be moved to the "Lätt infanteri Tavastehus" in the light section.
29. Indelta infanteri Upland

Skirmishers:
1. Fältjägare Värmland
2. Fältjägare Elfsborg - should be replaced with the "Värvade jägare Savolax" from the line units with the name "Fältjägare Savolax". The Savolax jägare also had a unique rifle at the time called "Savolaxstudsaren" or "Sprengtportenska studsaren".
3. Fältjägare Åbo - should be replaced with the "Jägare Karelska" from the light units with the name "Fältjägare Karelen".
4. Fältjägare Västerbotten - should be renamed "Fältjägare Kajana" based on the "Kajana jägarbataljon".
5. Fältjägare Tavastehus - should be renamed "Fältjägare Nyland" based on the "Nylands jägarbataljon" that was formed in 1780, source here http://www.hhogman.se/regementen_sf_infanteriet.htm#xl_Viborgs-lans-infanteriregemente.

SUMMARY

Change name:
2. (elite) "Andra lifgarde" > "Svenska gardet"
3. (elite) "Finska lifgarde" > "Finska gardet"
1. (light) "Göta lifgarde fotjägare" > "Lätt infanteri Lifregementet"
24. (line) "Indelta infanteri Nyland" > "Indelta infanteri Åbo"
26. (line) "Indelta infanteri Närke" > "Indelta infanteri Närke-Värmland"
27. (line) "Indelta infanteri Dal" > "Indelta infanteri Dalarna"
4. (skirmisher) "Fältjägare Västerbotten" > "Fältjägare Kajana"
5. (skirmisher) "Fältjägare Tavastehus" > "Fältjägare Nyland"

Remove:
3. (light) "Lätt infanteri Värmland" or make it impossible to combine with either "Värvade infanteri Vermland" or "Fältjägare Värmland"
5. (line) "Indelta infanteri Jemtland" or make it impossible to combine with "Lätt infanteri Jemtland"
18. (line) "Värvade infanteri Vermland" or make it impossible to combine with either "Lätt infanteri Värmland" or "Fältjägare Värmland"
28 a. (line) "Indelta infanteri Tavastehus" or make it impossible to combine with "Lätt infanteri Tavastehus"

Move:
4. (light) "Johan Adam Cronstedt ← Värvade jägare (Värvade jägare)" to Skirmishers along with "värvade jägare Savolax" (with appropriate stats)
4. (line) "Värvade jägare Savolax" to Skirmishers (with appropriate stats)
6. (light) "Jägare Karelska" to Skirmishers with the name "Fältjägare Karelen" (with appropriate stats)
28 b. (line) "Otto von Fieandt ← Indelta infanteri" should be moved to the "Lätt infanteri Tavastehus" in the light section. (with appropriate stats)

Replace:
2. (skirmisher) "Fältjägare Elfsborg" with 4. (line) "Värvade jägare Savolax" under the name "Fältjägare Savolax" (with appropriate stats)
3. (skirmisher) "Fältjägare Åbo" with 6. (light) "Jägare Karelska" under the name "Fältjägare Karelen". (with appropriate stats)

This would fix many of the existing errors and confusing parts in the Swedish roster, in my opinion. I don't expect everything of what I just wrote to be changed, but I'd consider the three first in the "Change name" to be edited at least. Also I'm not an expert; the Swedish army at this time is very confusing sometimes, I spent quite some time doing this list, everyone can get things wrong. It's also up to you, the developers of the mod, to choose whether you want one unit only occurring ones, or if you want that same unit occurring two or even three times only in different names. I prefer a unit only occuring once to avoid making the build historically false (by picking up to three units which are in fact the same one), which would also make a historical battle incorrect and thus ruin it.

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Re: Swedish roster needs fixing

Postby Lord Davn » Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:15 am

We try to make the NTW3 mod as accurate as possible with help from the players. There are several articles on the Swedish army units to help with the names. Corrections have been made to the v85 SP Campaign text file.

Swedish Armed Forces Organization: Period 1790-1815: http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/Sweden/c_swedenarmy.html

The Swedish Army in the Napoleonic Wars: http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/Sweden/Organization/c_swedisharmy.html

Regular Army Units in 1805: http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/Sweden/Organization/c_swedisharmy2.html
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Re: Swedish roster needs fixing

Postby Herrputte » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:26 pm

I applaud the effort done here! Well done!


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