Instant squares fixed!

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Lord Lepic
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Lepic » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:45 pm

No one but Desaix works on HBs, except Doran now.

Then my question is then what are they working on and how will this be an improvement

So Stilgar yourt statement is biased and worthless

That i 1000% agree on
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby stilgar » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:42 pm

Lord Cosak wrote:No one but Desaix works on HBs, except Doran now. So Stilgar your statement is biased and worthless. ..


I know what I am talking about and you know what I am talking about. So, it's your reaction that is worthless.
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Cosak » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:54 pm

No one ever wanted to replace Desaix for HBs. Saying anything else is wrong, period.

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Desaix » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:15 pm

Lord Cosak wrote:No one but Desaix works on HBs, except Doran now. So Stilgar your statement is biased and worthless.

As for Desaix, I asked you 17 times to compile the launcher with the new version. It lasted 4 months. You didn't reply.
Then I asked for the source-code, as you were very busy, to do the work myself. You didn't reply.
When we finally reached the deadline ALL LORDZ had agreed on for long, without any reaction from you, I did the job myself. Was it a pleasure to work on this? No.

The 7.0 version was released on January 27th 2017. Here's one Lord Davn's post on September 3rd 2016:

Lord Davn wrote:I will discuss with Lord Desaix about (...) the NTW3 desk launcher


Five months later, no reply (yes/no), no will to share the code, nothing. Stop complaining about my 'sudden deadlines'.


Always said to Davn that the launcher would have been ready for the end of January, but the truth is that you choosed to have everything done by you to avoid counting on other's work that you didn't like and had no control over. Same for your app for creating scenarios, I told you we could use Hibam but then I saw you had already developed your own. No complain, in HB I also prefer to do what I can by myself but please don't pretend I believe this story of the ghost Desaix who disappeared. There was no absolutely need to share my code since I'd already written that the manager would have been ready for your choosen deadline (not mine).

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Cosak » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:49 pm

I had sent you 4 PM, written on Steam, on the forum about Hibam, questions about how to use it: no reply from you >>> I did my own tool.
There was a vote about the release date.


You wrote me on November 5th 2016:
Lord Desaix wrote:You plan a release on 11th without communicating the intentio to completely change the file system and subfolders.


Indeed the first release date (November 11th) was too early. We postponed it by ten weeks, only waiting for your launcher update. So you knew for ten weeks prior to release that we were waiting only for you. You had all the files, all the scripts, everything, in early November. In late January nothing was done, and all Lordz (not only me) decided to go on anyway.

You were busy, I can easily understand (I can be busy too in real life). But in a community work (with no money involved), you share your work (ie. source-code) to let others work while you're busy elsewhere. Writing a launcher on Qt is not my favourite passtime, but I had to do it.

I regret this discussion because I appreciate HB very much, it was one of my main reason to try NTW3 in 2011. Great job here, with the maps of course, but even the best talents can mess up, and you messed up on the launcher for the 7.1 release. If you are willing to do the launcher for the current or next version of NTW3, it'll be a pleasure.

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Harout » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:12 am

Doran and I work on HB whilst consulting Desaix and Stilgar about HB. For NTW3 Napoleons Eagles Historical Battles for Napoleon: Total War.

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Desaix » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:01 pm

Lord Cosak wrote:I had sent you 4 PM, written on Steam, on the forum about Hibam, questions about how to use it: no reply from you >>> I did my own tool.
There was a vote about the release date.


You wrote me on November 5th 2016:
Lord Desaix wrote:You plan a release on 11th without communicating the intentio to completely change the file system and subfolders.


Indeed the first release date (November 11th) was too early. We postponed it by ten weeks, only waiting for your launcher update. So you knew for ten weeks prior to release that we were waiting only for you. You had all the files, all the scripts, everything, in early November. In late January nothing was done, and all Lordz (not only me) decided to go on anyway.

You were busy, I can easily understand (I can be busy too in real life). But in a community work (with no money involved), you share your work (ie. source-code) to let others work while you're busy elsewhere. Writing a launcher on Qt is not my favourite passtime, but I had to do it.

I regret this discussion because I appreciate HB very much, it was one of my main reason to try NTW3 in 2011. Great job here, with the maps of course, but even the best talents can mess up, and you messed up on the launcher for the 7.1 release. If you are willing to do the launcher for the current or next version of NTW3, it'll be a pleasure.


I regret instead to see events and quotes adapted just to try to have some right. It looks like you have a short memory or purposely trying to change facts.
I suggest you to read back all messages in the various development threads. You're making a big confusion of different versions: I never messed up anything with the launcher, especially 7.1 which was ready for the 11 of November, apparently the date you had decided for the 7.1 release.
But both Fullin and Davn were late with their files, more some classic dynamics had to be fixed (all written please take time to read them instead of stating false accusations). After fixing Elchingen startup script all was fine on my side, not on SP and MP classic.

And, here you look again quite confused, 7.1 was never postponed ten weeks: it was released as planned on the 15th of November, one day more one day less, with my working launcher as usual. But after that you started to ask for changes in the manager like changing background, reducing width, so I think you already had in mind to develop your own to detach from the dependancy of mine manager, which honestly was thought for HB and not classic MP, although it showed to be nicely suitable for SP campaign as well. That's true that in early november you asked for the source code but my answer was enough clear: no need to share the code since I would have updated the launcher as usual and that the manager would have been ready for the start of the tournament of the 12th of November, and actually it was. So in a community you share your work if and only if you cannot do the job, but the truth is that I had always done that on time. As you can see I've never taken for myself anything, you can use my maps for scenarios, you can use my Hibam for map making, my atlas editor I have always tried to help as much as possible so your statement is really out of target.

To make it short, in December you fixed a patch estimated release date for end of January, I agree writing that notwithstanding a tough January I would have prepared the updated launcher for that date. And I was ready when like a bolt from the blue you released on the 25th version 7.2 with your new launcher without even messaging me with your intentions. The message was quite clear no matter what you say now confusing different releases. I was quite disappointed after all the years to see such a behaviour that nor VC nor Avon nor Fullin hadn't done for sure. But time changes, not a problem for me, after that event and not even an apologize don't be surprised I did prefer to avoid any further contact.

There's even a message by me offering for an 7.2 launcher update which nobody cared to answer to. What did I need more?

Anyway let's move on, I repeat that I understand your motivation and why you acted in that selfish way, old manager will be updated for next HB release with the battle of Sagunto and maybe the option to select two different gameplay style if Doran/Harout will be able to submit a working more historical revision. But I have already deleted in summer the SP/MP stuff, so you could go on with yours.

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Lancier » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:31 pm

Just a humble thought, why not release ntw3-classic and ntw3-hb separately as if they are completely 2 different games? They are anyway ^^ Tho i dont know if this is technically possible but that way updates would be independent of each other?..god, i dont even have ntw3 installed on my computer why i am talking, old habits die hard ^^

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Desaix » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:31 pm

That's the Project, read my last lines

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Cosak » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:51 pm

I can't argue rationally about it... You don't want to share any source, you don't reply to questions, and then you start your own standalone. Great behaviour, hat off.

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Gunner24 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:51 pm

Just a humble thought, why not release ntw3-classic and ntw3-hb separately as if they are completely 2 different games? They are anyway

Gotta agree this is now looking like the best option, but see below................

That's the Project

Not sure if that means as part of the Lordz group or totally separate from the Lordz, read on please.....

In a way this is none of my business, but there again I still have "Lord" in front of my gunner24 ID, so I will comment, for better of worse.

Only a suggestion : Why not fix a ntw3 version, this one, or the next, and call it "ZERO DAY", then if the Lordz allowed a hb modding team to take that zero day version of ntw3 and use it as a base for a brand new NTW mod called, lets say for now - ntwhb. The new ntwhb team could also allow the Lordz to keep all the hb maps as part of the zero day ntw3 in return,

What you would then have is -
* A Lordz ntw3 mod, with NO hb part to it, just a straight forward ntw3.
* A [new modding team name] ntwhb mod.

From zero day +1 the Lordz would not have any hb matters to worry about and the new hb modding team would not have access to any furture ntw3 work.

Now you do have two completely independent NTW mods.
Of course this only works if the Lordz give full permission for all the past work being used as a base for the new ntwhb work.

It may well be that the Lordz might not want to do that, although as an old Lord I would not object, easy for me to say as I never did any work for ntw3, but I did do 100s of hours work for maps on ntw2 and some for ntw3 which are still in the mod now (I think). For all those 100s of hours work I would be happy enough for others to use that to make something "different"..........note not "better" but different.

Hmmmm.
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby stilgar » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:15 pm

@ Gunner24.

I understand that the suggestion stems from your long-standing interest in a more realistic lobby MP (probably with LCS in mind). However, I personally see hardly any cause for ntwhb mod with free-choice OOB atm. For a healthy mod you'd need players and few people with knowledge to do the work. Either is missing atm, at least as far as I can see.

But I can see a cause for HB to get out of the shadow of classic MP and get it's own life. This will improve the visibility of HB and emphasize the difference in scope between classic MP and HB, let alone simplify the development process. I personally think that HB (preset historical scenario's) is the best way to fight the Napoleonic battles and hope there are enough people out there that agree with me and are willing to play HBs in its current formula. So, my hope is to see new HB's released regularly and played by a small and dedicated community, rather than witness another endless crusade for the perfect stats and tackling the new exploits.

Just my two cents.
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Gunner24 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:48 pm

But I can see a cause for HB to get out of the shadow of classic MP and get it's own life.

That's kind of what I suggested.

However, I personally see hardly any cause for ntwhb mod with free-choice OOB atm

I never even thought of that, let alone mentioned it.

From all the chit chat on this post it seems that classic and hb are going to be harder and harder to mix together in the SAME mod in future.

My view of ntwhb is nothing other than ntw3hb is now, nothing else, but in a stand alone mod that has it's own team that can do what they like when they like. I don't see any chance I would ever return to action, far too old for that now, so it makes no difference to me what happens, other than even none active as I am, I'd like to see ntw3 live on, and for now it might be best if that is separately from the hb side of things. Drop the hb bit and let those interested in that side of the game develop it as they see best.

So, my hope is to see new HB's released regularly and played by a small and dedicated community,

But is that likely to happen while all part of the ntw3 mod ?.

If yes, then fair enough, leave it as is............but
Why not two mods ?.

Both groups can concentrate on their main interest, and both communities can also do the same and support the one they like best.

Anyway, whatever happens, or not, good luck in the future, and have a great 2018 whichever part of ntw3 you happen to prefer.
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Desaix » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:10 pm

Lord Cosak wrote:I can't argue rationally about it... You don't want to share any source, you don't reply to questions, and then you start your own standalone. Great behaviour, hat off.


Just ask yourself what was the reason before taking your hat off? Maybe read carefully above and you'll understand that it's not because Desaix is a touchy ballbuster shut in his niche. Well maybe touchy yes as Ziuk could confirm :wink:

Don't worry by the way, a standalone Hb version will not harm classic in any way, few are playing HBs and when done a preliminary agreement is always needed, you did a huge work with scenarios and I have no intention to confine HB maps to HB mod as long as they are used under the Lordz umbrella, and it will be easier for me to update manager only when new battles/version of HB need that. Apart from hb_maps, the two mods don't share files so they're practically already two standalone packages with the same installer. If HB can use some classic features like extended roster or large minimap or a couple of atlases that's fine, otherwise I won't cry without those.

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Lepic » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:16 pm

few are playing HBs

this i do agree with and on
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Desaix » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:29 pm

As we use to say here...better alone that in a bad company :wink:

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Liberalis » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:09 am

Hi all, among the sarcasms I’m not sure to have understood if there has really been a fix to the insta-squares or not ?
Cosak’s tweaking of squares make them allready break in the past few versions, but I guess any improvement would be more than welcome.

So, what’s the deal with this fix? Does it work ? How does kt work ?
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Lepic » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:15 am

So, what’s the deal with this fix? Does it work ? How does kt work ?

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Sheet1 KV MORALE, Original, Iteration One, Iteration Two broken_finish_base_timeout, 500, 0 charge_bonus,- 1, 0 charge_timeout, 25, 10 ume_encouraged_fortification, 1, 0, Iteration Four, Iteration Five extended_casualties_penalty_10,- 5,- 7,- 5 extended_casualties_penalty_15,- 7,- 10,- 7 ...
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Davn » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:06 am

Disagreement and arguments are nothing new here on the Lordz forum, although its been a while since we've had a good go around
:angry-cussingwhite:
For any of the Lordz that are interested in how we got here this thread may be of interest:
https://www.thelordz.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15514&p=167833#p167833
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Ztrain909 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:46 am

Lord Desaix wrote: next HB Sagunto and my plan to release some new battles are clearly readable by all in the HB subforum together with my plan to make a standalone version


I just became sexually aroused after reading this line. Vive La HB's!

Damn, just when I was getting real good at LCS, now there's gonna be a fix.

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Mr. Doran » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:15 am

@ Lord Liberalis

Lord Liberalis wrote:Hi all, among the sarcasms I’m not sure to have understood if there has really been a fix to the insta-squares or not ?
Cosak’s tweaking of squares make them allready break in the past few versions, but I guess any improvement would be more than welcome.

So, what’s the deal with this fix? Does it work ? How does kt work ?


-Riders cannot be thrown from their horses if their charge speed is below a certain threshold. The hard coded limit on this seems to be around 5 or 4.8. 4.8 was incidentally the maximum running speed to begin with for HB so the transition to a lower charge speed is a very convenient solution to this aspect.

-Square form up time had been increased dramatically through the lowering of acceleration speeds. This causes infantry to take considerably more time to form a square. Consequentially the models not formed into the square can be easily murdered in the charging phase producing many casualties. It has been said by Jack Lusted from CA that the square bonus is not applied until the square is "fully formed". I do not know if this is true or not but it does not seem to make a difference. Units that are outside the square get annihilated during the impact while fully formed squares can repulse cavalry attacks. This aspect of the solution is supported by the next point.

- Unit dueling animations were gutted. This removes the silly dueling animation phase and skips right to the kill or block animation. Significantly reduces the time to kill which means more models can be killed quicker that are outside the square before it has time to become an effective formation.

-My squares also do not allow for heavy cavalry to walk through them then proceed to click them down as well.

All changes that benefit HB a lot and an MP module that uses HB stats. No break through for classic gameplay unless some serious changes are made to unit statistics.

Ztrain909 wrote:
Damn, just when I was getting real good at LCS, now there's gonna be a fix.


You can still play with LCS if you choose though the squares are working very well after the most recent rounds of adjustments.

Add me on steam if you are interested in playing HBs or testing the new mechanics
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Last edited by Mr. Doran on Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Desaix » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:27 am

Ztrain909 wrote:
Lord Desaix wrote: next HB Sagunto and my plan to release some new battles are clearly readable by all in the HB subforum together with my plan to make a standalone version


I just became sexually aroused after reading this line. Vive La HB's!



Hope you did have a deep orgasm after reading about Ligny :mrgreen:

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Lepic » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:24 am

as this will be stand alone my question is compatibility
will it work & run with the classic version installed as well or will be a one or other option or choice for player to make between the 2 mods
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Desaix » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:01 pm

Standalone means only that you can install HB without needing to install classic and SP and that it will have a separate launcher. Version NTW3 v4 already has this approach although they shared a common launcher. No compatibility issues can arise if they don't share any common pack providing that classic launcher will delete the HB_localization pack (if found in the data folder).


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