Instant squares fixed!

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Mr. Doran
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Instant squares fixed!

Postby Mr. Doran » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:03 am

The effects and consequences of instantly forming squares have been encircled and annihilated!
-----Squares no longer cause riders to be thrown off their horses when charging a square!
-----Infantry not fully formed into the square can now be butchered!
-----Squares take more time to form up!

Video evidence (CA Friendly version)



(Morale is misleading; no supporting units nearby. Alpha build anyway)

Brought to you by the Historical Battle Mechanics Revamp Team [ Mr. Doran, Harout ].

Our goal: We intend to improve upon the already fantastic Historical Battles by Desaix and make them all the more authentic; and remove the necessity for some of the rules which have governed HBs to this date such as LCS and the removal of fire in melee.


[b]All
interested are welcomed on the discord where you can find the latest updates.

My Steam profile: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198014028214/

Now recruiting testers.

Discord Link https://discord.gg/e6xNwsp

Verbal changes listed on the bottom
FULL CHANGE LOG:
Spoiler: show
Full change log here:


A note to all interested in testing; you have to use a special modified HB pack file for each battle. For the morale to work as intended all units are given the fear effect. The only one provided currently is Waterloo if you want to do your own test games.
Last edited by Mr. Doran on Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:12 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Mr. Doran
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Re: Unconditional surrender of instantly forming squares! Victory for historical battles! Victory for mankind!

Postby Mr. Doran » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:24 am

Reserved

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Re: Unconditional surrender of instantly forming squares! Victory for historical battles! Victory for mankind!

Postby Harout » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:25 am

Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah! Long live the Historical Battle Mechanics Revamp Team!

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Lord Cosak
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Cosak » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:15 am

You cannot use NTW3 maps and resources without even asking for anything. This is stealing.

Nothing can't be shared without explicit Lordz' agreement. Not only mine but all active Lordz working on NTW3.

If you wish to contribute, great. If you are working without the Lordz, please start doing your own maps and texture sets.

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Lord Desaix
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Desaix » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:31 am

Although I'm glad to support and evaluate any attempt to improve HB or classic mechanics, first post has been edited because it contained offence to CA which Lordz don't support.

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Lepic » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:36 am

what are the Lordz supporting here then exactly
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Desaix » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:49 am

I guess Lordz support the development of napoleonic mods for TW series.

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Kaiser Wilhelm II » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:12 am

Huzzah my good man!

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Cosak » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:30 am

The Lordz support NTW3, including Historical battles. Any contribution (regimental mod, naval mod, etc.) in NTW3 was always made with Lordz, and several (ie. Lord Wesley, Lord Girona) joined us to achieve that.

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Lancier » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:18 pm

Mr. Doran wrote:Instant squares fixed!

...better late than never, thanks. :smile:

Spoiler: show
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Gunner24 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:24 pm

After all this time has this instant square nonsense really been fixed ?.
Great news if so, well done all those involved.........now, on to the next thing.

Two ways to do this -
1 Join the Lordz and build it into ntw3 ASAP.
OR
2. Ask the Lordz permission to make a new mod that includes all the Lordz work and give full credit to all the previous work involved.
As happened a long time ago with ntw2/CB (Corps Battles version).

Good luck all, whatever direction you take.
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Lord Davn
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Davn » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:00 pm

This would be a game changer for the NTW3 mods if it's able to be implemented successfully :wink:
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Mr. Doran » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:21 pm

Lord Cosak wrote:The Lordz support NTW3, including Historical battles. Any contribution (regimental mod, naval mod, etc.) in NTW3 was always made with Lordz, and several (ie. Lord Wesley, Lord Girona) joined us to achieve that.


If we, Harout and myself, put Desaix on the spot it was not our intention; we asked for his permission to start experimenting with changes to improve realism and it is ultimately up the Lordz or whoever is actually in charge of the HB module to whether the changes are implemented in a release. I see no harm in however testing them and bringing it to peoples attention that there can be and are better mechanics that can be achieved in HB.

I think bringing to the front the fix of instant squares and almost killing all of the negatives that they brought with them should be able to buy me a lordzship eh. But do not worry my dear, I will not cry like an impetulant child if someone uses my discovery in a future release of their mod... I however want my name plastered on it!

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Lord Cosak
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Cosak » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:29 pm

@Doran I joined the Lordz exactly the way you did: I had tested some features on my own and wanted to share it with the NTW3 creators. They welcomed me and we worked together. I am not asking for anything else.

You are obviously willing to improve the mod... Why would anyone be offended by that? Just talk with the modders (NTW3 or any else), we are not many and we already spend countless hours on the mod to improve it. Nowadays no one amongst Lordz is working on HBs, so you would be welcome to join us rather than developping promising stuff aside.

I prefer a thorough approach rather than random goodwill. As for plastered names and fame, I know for long that working on a free napoleonic mod won't bring any.

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Mr. Doran » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:54 pm

Lord Cosak wrote:@Doran I joined the Lordz exactly the way you did: I had tested some features on my own and wanted to share it with the NTW3 creators. They welcomed me and we worked together. I am not asking for anything else.

You are obviously willing to improve the mod... Why would anyone be offended by that? Just talk with the modders (NTW3 or any else), we are not many and we already spend countless hours on the mod to improve it. Nowadays no one amongst Lordz is working on HBs, so you would be welcome to join us rather than developping promising stuff aside.

I prefer a thorough approach rather than random goodwill. As for plastered names and fame, I know for long that working on a free napoleonic mod won't bring any.


Desaix then sounds like his last man standing for HB and I already talked with him about testing all of the changes I have been working on. I really do not know how or who you expect me to speak to. I thought the OP was a pretty public invitation to take Harout and I in or banish us entirely; you or whatever democracy/autocracy is in charge can decide that for us. I cannot understand the initial hostile tone when we even said we are here to improve "Historical Battles by Desaix". No one is here to take credit for the giants who already laid the foundations.

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Cosak » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:36 pm

I have posted more than 20 question to Desaix about HB in 2017. He answered none. Amen. He doesn't reply to anyone from the Lordz team anyway, so we don't have any information from him.

I don't intend to banish any goodwill as look as the mod's unity is preserved. If you wish to contribute to NTW3 (HB-related) then we are on the same wavelength.

Be careful about exclamation mark in the title: many, many announces concerning instant squares fixes have already been seen since 2011, and none was really successful. In current NTW3 classic battles, non-formed squares can already be crushed by medium/heavy cavalry. We are not facing for long the full unbreakable instant square bonus for a couple of years.

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Mr. Doran » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:46 pm

Lord Cosak wrote:
Be careful about exclamation mark in the title: many, many announces concerning instant squares fixes have already been seen since 2011, and none was really successful. In current NTW3 classic battles, non-formed squares can already be crushed by medium/heavy cavalry. We are not facing for long the full unbreakable instant square bonus for a couple of years.


I guess none of the changes in the video then are an improvement then and are therefore not needed. :wink:

Edit: I went into classic and ran a few tests just to make sure what a classic square looks like compared to what I have changed.... yeah no differences between the two at all lol
Last edited by Mr. Doran on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Davn » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:48 pm

We rely on new ideas from you & others to improve this tireless mod that is now approaching 8 years old. We receive many suggestions and ideas to improve the NTW3 mod, Lord Cosak has simply tried to state how new ideas like yours get implemented into the NTW3 mods. I'd suggest you contact Lord Desaix and offer to work with him on his HB mod as it can provide a great benefit to the Historical Battles.
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Mr. Doran » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:51 pm

Lord Davn wrote:We rely on new ideas from you & others to improve this tireless mod that is now approaching 8 years old. We receive many suggestions and ideas to improve the NTW3 mod, Lord Cosak has simply tried to state how new ideas like yours get implemented into our NTW3 mods. I'd suggest you contact Lord Desaix and offer to work with him on his HB mod as it can provide a great benefit to the Historical Battles.

I have been talking and working with Desaix for over two weeks now as I have stated previously. He has given me permission to test out new values, concepts, and mechanics. For whatever reason mass hysteria has spread that we are thieves that would be dumb enough to post that we are stealing on the very forum of the original mod developers .

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Davn » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:20 pm

I'd encourage you to continue working with Lord Desaix on your square fix as he is quite familiar with previous efforts to correct this problem. I would also also be interested in working with you to apply it to the SP Campaign mod if the HB tests are successful. Lord Cosak is only being cautious as there have been many past attempts to fix this huge error by CA when they removed it from the original NTW release (for unknown reasons) :confused:

The Lordz are always grateful to have help in adding new ideas and fixes to improve the game play of the NTW3 mod.
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Mr. Doran » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 pm

Lord Davn wrote:I'd encourage you to continue working with Lord Desaix on your square fix as he is quite familiar with previous efforts to correct this problem. I would also also be interested in working with you to apply it to the SP Campaign mod if the HB tests are successful. Lord Cosak is only being cautious as there have been many past attempts to fix this huge error by CA when they removed it from the original NTW release (for unknown reasons) :confused:


Add me on steam: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198014028214/ I would be more than glad to help you implement it into the single player campaign whenever you feel it is the right time. To all skeptical all I have to say is watch the video and then go do some square testing in Classic or HB.

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Desaix » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:10 am

It seems a precisation is needed to get rid of some misunderstandings probably spread here and on discord with some hidden goal.

At the end of 2016 I gave my availability to arrange NTW3 launcher for the coming version. Being in my worse businness season I asked the deadline, Cosak wrote that end of January would have been the estimated release date. I therefore prepared the new launcher and to my surprise and I must say big disappointment on the 27th of January Cosak released the new version with his own (let me say ugly launcher from an HB perspective) without even a private notice that the release time had been anticipated. The picture anyway was already clear from critics made in the previous period to some graphic choice of the manager or its functionality: with the ouster of Avon he wanted to have full control of the classic mod from A to Z. I've been in that position at the very beginning of NTW3, maybe few remember here but when Brainded Colonel quit at the beginning of 2010 the honour and burden to keep on developing NTW3 was taken by JC and me with a beta version that already included my version of the hidden movement, a revision of entities, speed and accuracy and the first stock of new and revised maps and of course my launcher with the wonderful pictures of Legless lannes. Unfortunately JC left right before July and I was lucky to find Von Clausewitz eager to take the role of mod leader together with me. We tried everything with no success to fix the square affair, from decompiling lua to trying to bribe CA programmers, but with a negative result our paths took a different direction: my aim was to focus on historical battles and maps based on a "HOUSE RULE" attitude to square (read LCS), VC to deal with the classic MP mod with NO RULES attitude. That was because my last classic version (done together with Sean who also put the fundament of the SP campaign) had a strong cavalry which tired out very fast and a slow infantry presupposing a sort of LCS rule for governing square formation. Something that casual players could not like and therefore we split NTW3 in two branches. This is to say that I understand why Cosak outsted Avon from classic mod: a single mind and attitude works better in this case.

All this said it's totally false that I have bad relationships with Lordz members, in fact I have many speaches with Davn and Lepic who both clearly know my disappointment about Cosak's behaviour. Uxbridge offered his contribution for next HB Sagunto and my plan to release some new battles are clearly readable by all in the HB subforum together with my plan to make a standalone version to introduce again my manager since it's no longer appreciated by Cosak. And I'm more than glad to offer in next release an alternative gamestyle, maybe preserving my current stats, if some nice breakthrough can arise by Doran or Harout on the square affaire. That was the same answered I gave to Lepic asking for an alternative slower version, but in both cases I'm not supposed to do the dirty jobs to rebuild all battle files, I can still cooperate by giving my tables but I need a some final files to include in my packages. No more fun with testing old schemes. I just feel bored enough when testing new battles.

Therefore I believe any tentative to replace my role of HB coordinator will be frustrated right because I'm more than ready to cooperate with people with the same cooperative attitude as I've always done with modders like Ziuk and MadMax, less with those pretending to step onto other's work.

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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby stilgar » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:29 pm

As a long-standing player of NTW3, both classic (played and tested starting from beta v1 to v5) and HB parts (past 5 years or so), I would like to make a couple of relevant points.

Firstly, classic and HB were always (aside from very early stage of NTW3 development perhaps) virtually independent projects under the same “roof”. Synergy has been rather limited and mostly technical, but it was beneficial to have all-in-one mod to provide more content to players and also exchange ideas. The practice of past few years showed that scope of HB and classic (past v1) and the players they attract turned to be quite different though.

Secondly, from what I’ve read on this forum and in various chat rooms, the Lordz currently in the lead of the development of classic mod voicing their concerns about lack of development of HB and need for an “overhaul/fix/improvement”. As a reply to that urge, I would ask to respect the ideas and work of HB creators and leave the design decisions to them (as was always the case within the lordz collective), with the input from the small but dedicated HB community. The last thing I’d like to see is HB turning into an extension of classic mod. That would beat the original purpose of the HB project. If after reading these lines, some lordz still feel the urge of fixing HBs, than they should start by making 20+ historical maps, then 20+ OOBs, then 100+ scenario’s and then start fixing them. That will be the ultimate prove of full respect for the modders ideas and effort!

Finally, the work of Doran and Harout can certainly bring some new interesting for HB solutions.
Looking forward to learning more about the results of their work.
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Lepic » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:16 pm

“overhaul/fix/improvement”

Long overdue

I would ask to respect the ideas and work of HB creators and leave the design decisions to them (as was always the case within the Lordz Collective), with the input from the small but dedicated HB community.

Who has ever not respected this!

If after reading these lines, some Lordz still feel the urge of fixing HBs, than they should start by making 20+ historical maps, then 20+ OOBs, then 100+ scenario’s and then start fixing them. That will be the ultimate prove of full respect for the modders ideas and effort!

I do not agree with your statement sir!

The last thing I’d like to see is HB turning into an extension of classic mod.

But thats what you are playing

Same old same old continued stance
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Re: Instant squares fixed!

Postby Lord Cosak » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:35 pm

No one but Desaix works on HBs, except Doran now. So Stilgar your statement is biased and worthless.

As for Desaix, I asked you 17 times to compile the launcher with the new version. It lasted 4 months. You didn't reply.
Then I asked for the source-code, as you were very busy, to do the work myself. You didn't reply.
When we finally reached the deadline ALL LORDZ had agreed on for long, without any reaction from you, I did the job myself. Was it a pleasure to work on this? No.

The 7.0 version was released on January 27th 2017. Here's one Lord Davn's post on September 3rd 2016:

Lord Davn wrote:I will discuss with Lord Desaix about (...) the NTW3 desk launcher


Five months later, no reply (yes/no), no will to share the code, nothing. Stop complaining about my 'sudden deadlines'.


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