Changes to NTW3 v6.0 that will improve gameplay

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Re: Changes to NTW3 v6.0 that will improve gameplay

Postby Lord Cosak » Sun May 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Wym... wrote:Hey up Gunner.......there as certainly a few issues that need addressing in 5.1 especially imo the unit stacking that produces silly blob fest charges that no musket fire can counter.....thou I'm not sure if this is moddable? I guess we will see.....


The best that can be done is slowing it. For unknown reasons stacking can't be prevented (for either artillery, cavalry or infantry) in the NTW engine.

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Re: Changes to NTW3 v6.0 that will improve gameplay

Postby Wym... » Sun May 15, 2016 8:58 pm

Slowing what? game speed/charge speed?
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Re: Changes to NTW3 v6.0 that will improve gameplay

Postby Lord Gunner24 » Mon May 16, 2016 12:56 pm

Hello wym, it must be nearly two years since we last met on the battlefields of ntw3.

a few issues that need addressing in 5.1 especially imo the unit stacking that produces silly blob fest charges that no musket fire can counter

I saw something about the BLOB recently, and was shocked, to see it still infects the game......and even worse, wins games.

It would be good if something "technical" could be done to stop it even being possible.

Slowing what? game speed/charge speed?

If I dare make a suggestion, not a new one, we have all heard it before, but.........here goes :

STOP all running.

If we could get a few hundred, or thousand ntw3 users all together in real life, and take them on some coaches out into the countryside, then ask them to form up in any kind of formation they what, and then start RUNNING across open fields, with ditches, fences, hedges and broken ground, I wonder what kind of shambles they would be in, after just 100 yards ?.........now add the cannon and musket fire, and the smoke.

One of the biggest fault with ntw3 was always the non stop running around, back and forth, around and around in circles ; It was simply NOT possible to do in real life, so why allow it to happen "in game" ?.....don't worry, I already know the answer. The game will be too slow and boring, and take to long to play.

I hope you get a good, nicely improved version wym, whatever that may look like.....and I'm most impressed your still active along with Lancier : is Frog still around, or did he retire ?.

All the best.
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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Lord Lancier » Mon May 16, 2016 1:16 pm

Hello Gunner, always great to see veterans around ... Lords work like a beaver for the next patch ^^
Frog is around but he put out to sea with the new game Naval Action like most of the ntw3 community members did. And again most may return to the mod with the next patch i presume ;> Hope to see you and NBC soon on ntw3 fields again Gunner.
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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby oOIYvYIOo » Mon May 16, 2016 3:37 pm

Lord Lancier wrote: Hope to see you and NBC soon on ntw3 fields again Gunner.


Beside all , we all miss NBC ,specially their biggest rivals , N . I hope you will return some day , we need the Historical clans here .
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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Wym... » Mon May 16, 2016 4:59 pm

Lord Cosak wrote:The best that can be done is slowing it. For unknown reasons stacking can't be prevented (for either artillery, cavalry or infantry) in the NTW engine.


Not sure what you mean by slowing? but another idea would be the accidental damage inflicted on friendlies as we now see with skirmishers(a bonus of 5.1)I know it only works when a melee combat order is given but that would help alot in the reduction of stack blob fests? so all friendly troops involved would be subject to friendly damage when daft unrealistic stacked blob orders are given.....again if it is moddable which I assume it is ish?
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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Lord Cosak » Mon May 16, 2016 6:02 pm

Wym... wrote:Not sure what you mean by slowing? but another idea would be the accidental damage inflicted on friendlies as we now see with skirmishers(a bonus of 5.1)I know it only works when a melee combat order is given but that would help alot in the reduction of stack blob fests? so all friendly troops involved would be subject to friendly damage when daft unrealistic stacked blob orders are given.....again if it is moddable which I assume it is ish?


Slowing: it works only with cavalry, when several cavalry units are stacked on the same place, they hamper each other. It doesn't have any effect on artillery or infantry. Skirmishers can be trampled by cavalry because they've been given considerably different "weight". The same infantry units have of course the same weight, so they can't trampled each other.

I don't like at all the "stacked grenadiers" trick, like any other trick. But I also notice several players complain about charges, but don't take any unit efficient enough to counter this: artillery, heavy cavalry, even just grenadiers to counter-charge.

We're exploring other ways to reduce the effectiveness of such "tactics".

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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Wym... » Mon May 16, 2016 6:36 pm

Lord Cosak wrote:. Skirmishers can be trampled by cavalry because they've been given considerably different "weight". The same infantry units have of course the same weight, so they can't trampled each other.


But you could add all infantry to the weight equation(as with skirms)? so all infantry can take friendly damage from friendly cav?? it would help to reduce cav/inf blobs somewhat?
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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Lord Cosak » Mon May 16, 2016 8:14 pm

[quote="Wym..."][/quote]

This would allow cavalry to move through infantry very easily, unlike what has been introduced in v4. This shouldn't change because of only one player using blobs, moreover when he loses most of the times because of it (you could see enough screenshots on the Grogs forum).

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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Alfr » Mon May 16, 2016 8:49 pm

As far as I'm concerned blob charges aren't a problem they are almost never successful and are easily countered a lot of people have gone to almost all infantry armies and just blob charge each other making it look far more effective than it really is, it's not a winning strategy, I would like to see the mutual routing fixed (perhaps a bonus for seeing enemies fleeing?) and referring back to blob charges, infantry charges vs cav are far to effective it looks absolutely ridiculous to catch some infantry out of square then see 3 or 4 infantry bayonet charge your cav and beat it.

No running would be great as well.

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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Lord Cosak » Mon May 16, 2016 9:24 pm

Alfr wrote:No running would be great as well.


In the vanilla infantry runs 3x faster than it walks. In NTW3 it's only 1,5x faster. So infantry never runs in NTW3, it just walks faster. It also takes more time to fire a volley when forming a line after running, exactly like it should be.

I wonder why four infantry units charging and routing a cavalry until is absurd. It happened many times, when a cavalry unit was encircled (Austerlitz, Auerstaedt, Borodino for the most famous). Please explain wha

The double routing is indeed an issue, we try to sort it out.

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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Alfr » Mon May 16, 2016 9:45 pm

Lord Cosak wrote:
Alfr wrote:No running would be great as well.


In the vanilla infantry runs 3x faster than it walks. In NTW3 it's only 1,5x faster. So infantry never runs in NTW3, it just walks faster. It also takes more time to fire a volley when forming a line after running, exactly like it should be.

I wonder why four infantry units charging and routing a cavalry until is absurd. It happened many times, when a cavalry unit was encircled (Austerlitz, Auerstaedt, Borodino for the most famous). Please explain wha

The double routing is indeed an issue, we try to sort it out.


No running fixes a lot of the gamey stuff like cav rushing guns. It makes the game more of a strategic, macro battle, instead of so much focus on micro.

I have never heard of this, big blobs or swarms of infantry charging cav like its 1016 or something? I don't mean the cav gets bogged down in large mass of men tires and routes I mean it brakes from the infantry charge. Could I get some sources I can not find anything?

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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Lord Cosak » Mon May 16, 2016 10:18 pm

Alfr wrote:No running fixes a lot of the gamey stuff like cav rushing guns. It makes the game more of a strategic, macro battle, instead of so much focus on micro.


Should cavalry be unable to run?

I have clearly stated that infantry doesn't run, it only walks. 7,5 km/h is not even trotting.



Alfr wrote:I have never heard of this, big blobs or swarms of infantry charging cav like its 1016 or something? I don't mean the cav gets bogged down in large mass of men tires and routes I mean it brakes from the infantry charge. Could I get some sources I can not find anything?


Understood, that's certainly because of the high morale debuff when "attacked in the rear". This is also the main cause of the double routing.

Real men being less suicidal than in NTW3, surrounded cavalry tended to surrender (Viazma, Lützen, Aspern).

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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Lord Gunner24 » Tue May 17, 2016 12:33 pm

Frog is around but he put out to sea with the new game Naval Action

I better start calling him Admiral Frog.

Lots of interesting stuff here, more than I have seen for a long time.

BLOBS :No matter if BLOB use results in a won battle, or a lost battle, they are still rubbish.....I assume the main attraction of that tactic is for ease of use, just group them all together and move them around like one large unit - hoping to steamroller everything it's it way. I used to see it win most of the time, but some of that was down to people just not even bothering to "play" against it.......better to get the game over and hope the next one never had a blob player in it.

I hope someone finds a way to stop it being possible.......but I guess it may be impossible. Just one of those things, like in ntw2, with the "shooting blocks" abuse, something that can be NOT done if NOT wanting to do it, but all too easy to go ahead and do it, because others do it. Unless it can be made physically impossible by modding, it will always be there - great pity. Both games ruined by one, silly, basic, CA game design fault.

7,5 km/h is not even trotting.

Result: 4.66 Miles/hour (mph)
http://calculator-converter.com/convert ... ulator.php
That sounds reasonable for a horse, but it would be far too high for a man........I would have the man at about 2mph (max) over cross country.

It seems now days the blob is the main problem, hope you can find a way to fix it........It used to be that people asked for lower moral, to make battles more decisive and to get a good result for good tactics, but I mostly liked higher moral, so as to at least have the guys fight awhile, before screaming off to the rear after a few minutes combat. Low moral also favours the big bad blob. Somewhere in-between would be best, if only it were that easy.
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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Wym... » Tue May 17, 2016 3:48 pm

Lord Cosak wrote:This would allow cavalry to move through infantry very easily, unlike what has been introduced in v4. This shouldn't change because of only one player using blobs, moreover when he loses most of the times because of it (you could see enough screenshots on the Grogs forum).


I agree some what(though in every single battle I fight or watch the combo cav/inf mini melee blobs are used during every battle, thou the larger mass blobs are only used by a few players spoiling battles for the rest).....other than the cheat still being used where players send their cav through friendly line regiments to specifically target enemy art? I know that in 5.1 that only a hand full are able to pass through, but thats enough to at least drive the enemies horse limbers away?

I know you in particular and the active lordz in general want a cheat free realistic mod.....lets hope some small tweaks can help this?
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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Sloop » Tue May 17, 2016 6:56 pm

I never quite got the hang of the blob tactic, not even in this pro-melee version. It is true that an assault can sometimes get a little crowded as more units are thrown into a critical melee but I don't see the blob much anymore. These days I only see the noobs using an actual blob as it usually results in a loss of the battle even if the blob does break a unit or two. I think the players are getting too good and know that charging more than a unit or two at one target is wasteful.

Perhaps a "slower" version would suit me better now that I am getting on in years. I can not keep up with the younger fellows and my eyesight is fading. Maybe we can start playing at the slow motion setting.

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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Wym... » Thu May 19, 2016 1:50 pm

After some thought I have 3 more suggestions that may improve over all game play but in particular the countering of the historically rare melee blobs we see and the light cavalry artillery hunting..... either one will help or a combination of some or all?
Firstly an increase of accuracy and or reloads for all ranged weapons?

Secondly an increase of range for all ranged weapons?

Thirdly a movement speed reduction of all troops?

I believe either of the above will help improve the historic feel but more importantly the game play of this mod, or the combination of 2 or 3 of the above may suit even better, though by how much these alterations are adjusted is an interesting thought? say acc + 15%, Range + 25% and speed reduction by 10%???????
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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Wym... » Thu May 19, 2016 1:51 pm

Another new fault of 5.1 is the inability for artillery to fire canister at a target on a higher elevation??
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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Lord Cosak » Thu May 19, 2016 3:22 pm

Wym... wrote:After some thought I have 3 more suggestions that may improve over all game play but in particular the countering of the historically rare melee blobs we see and the light cavalry artillery hunting..... either one will help or a combination of some or all?
Firstly an increase of accuracy and or reloads for all ranged weapons?


I have read often on this forum that melees were very rare, especially when looking at the injuries reports. Here's my thinking about this (correct me if I'm wrong):

  • Some major battles were mostly melee engagement (Friedland, Borodino)
  • Most of the times troops retreated before being charged. That's why most battles had a kill ratio of 5 to 10% max, unlike 60 to 80% in NTW3. But who would play on computer if you win or lose after losing only 5% of your troops? This flaw is also true for desktop wargames.
  • There were no light injuries caused by bayonets, only lethal wounds, that's why "surgeons" hardly worked on injuries caused by bayonets
  • The main Napoleon's tactic was to create a breach with heavy cavalry and concentrated troops, grenadiers had the highest loss rate in the French army, and most of them used to put ammo in their pockets and not even taking their cartridge pouch on the battlefield

I hate blobs, but I can't agree with "rare melee". In NTW3 you can do a lot of stupid or not-so stupid tactics, but blobs are far from being the most effective. A mass charge is also very hard and hazardous. When it works, it's mostly because of a bad choice of army. Players hardly take heavy cavalry, then complain afterwards when they're being charged and can't defend themselves. Something's wrong...

In version 5 heavy cavalry is admittedly slightly overpriced, we're working on it. In the next version we aim to make light/medium/heavy types of cavalry equally useful (for different tasks).


Wym... wrote:Secondly an increase of range for all ranged weapons?


Considering the in-game scale of NTW3, the current standard musket range (70), it's about 140m, which is approx. the engagement range for the French army. Anyway this is prone to debate with players and other Lordz.



Wym... wrote:Thirdly a movement speed reduction of all troops?


2.8 mph is the current average walking speed for line infantry, 4.2 mph for running. I don't think it's really exaggerated, moreover fatigue greatly reduces all stats.

Concerning the reloading, they are currently far faster than in reality (2-3 shots per minute for the Charleville, 3-4 for the Brown Bess). This shouldn't change.

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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Stf » Thu May 19, 2016 4:52 pm

Lord Cosak wrote:
Wym... wrote:After some thought I have 3 more suggestions that may improve over all game play but in particular the countering of the historically rare melee blobs we see and the light cavalry artillery hunting..... either one will help or a combination of some or all?
Firstly an increase of accuracy and or reloads for all ranged weapons?


I have read often on this forum that melees were very rare, especially when looking at the injuries reports. Here's my thinking about this (correct me if I'm wrong):

  • Some major battles were mostly melee engagement (Friedland, Borodino)
  • Most of the times troops retreated before being charged. That's why most battles had a kill ratio of 5 to 10% max, unlike 60 to 80% in NTW3. But who would play on computer if you win or lose after losing only 5% of your troops? This flaw is also true for desktop wargames.
  • There were no light injuries caused by bayonets, only lethal wounds, that's why "surgeons" hardly worked on injuries caused by bayonets
  • The main Napoleon's tactic was to create a breach with heavy cavalry and concentrated troops, grenadiers had the highest loss rate in the French army, and most of them used to put ammo in their pockets and not even taking their cartridge pouch on the battlefield

I hate blobs, but I can't agree with "rare melee". In NTW3 you can do a lot of stupid or not-so stupid tactics, but blobs are far from being the most effective. A mass charge is also very hard and hazardous. When it works, it's mostly because of a bad choice of army. Players hardly take heavy cavalry, then complain afterwards when they're being charged and can't defend themselves. Something's wrong...

In version 5 heavy cavalry is admittedly slightly overpriced, we're working on it. In the next version we aim to make light/medium/heavy types of cavalry equally useful (for different tasks).


Wym... wrote:Secondly an increase of range for all ranged weapons?


Considering the in-game scale of NTW3, the current standard musket range (70), it's about 140m, which is approx. the engagement range for the French army. Anyway this is prone to debate with players and other Lordz.



Wym... wrote:Thirdly a movement speed reduction of all troops?



2.8 mph is the current average walking speed for line infantry, 4.2 mph for running. I don't think it's really exaggerated, moreover fatigue greatly reduces all stats.

Concerning the reloading, they are currently far faster than in reality (2-3 shots per minute for the Charleville, 3-4 for the Brown Bess). This shouldn't change.


And what do you think about changing melee stats in order to decrease infantry charge skills and to increase cavlry charge skills ?

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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Lord Fullin » Thu May 19, 2016 6:23 pm

Lord Gunner24 wrote:If I dare make a suggestion, not a new one, we have all heard it before, but.........here goes :

STOP all running.

If we could get a few hundred, or thousand ntw3 users all together in real life, and take them on some coaches out into the countryside, then ask them to form up in any kind of formation they what, and then start RUNNING across open fields, with ditches, fences, hedges and broken ground, I wonder what kind of shambles they would be in, after just 100 yards ?.........now add the cannon and musket fire, and the smoke.

One of the biggest fault with ntw3 was always the non stop running around, back and forth, around and around in circles ; It was simply NOT possible to do in real life, so why allow it to happen "in game" ?.....don't worry, I already know the answer. The game will be too slow and boring, and take to long to play.

I hope you get a good, nicely improved version wym, whatever that may look like.....and I'm most impressed your still active along with Lancier : is Frog still around, or did he retire ?.

All the best.


Probably the new Regimental version can bring back the good old NBC back.
Its slower
there is no running
there is no squares
and no stats either.(aside the obvious heavy cavalry/guard units)

Time will tell
Sauve qui peut!' 'Nous sommes trahis!'

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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Lord Lancier » Thu May 19, 2016 6:41 pm

Maybe you ruined the whole surprise Fullin posting this little secret on public ? ^^
Lord Fullin wrote:Probably the new Regimental version can bring back the good old NBC back.
Its slower
there is no running
there is no squares
and no stats either.(aside the obvious heavy cavalry/guard units)

Time will tell
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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Sloop » Thu May 19, 2016 9:06 pm

Lord Fullin wrote:Probably the new Regimental version can bring back the good old NBC back.
Its slower
there is no running
there is no squares
and no stats either.(aside the obvious heavy cavalry/guard units)

...And there is no RULES!!!!

.

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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Wym... » Fri May 20, 2016 12:20 pm

Well I'm fairly confident that 5.2 or v6 ??? will provide a better if not different Mod?

BTW will the new Regimental version be incorporated in the new version as WITA was in 5.1?
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Re: Changes to NTW3 v5.1 that will improve gameplay

Postby Lord Davn » Fri May 20, 2016 6:28 pm

Wym... wrote:Well I'm fairly confident that 5.2 or v6 ??? will provide a better if not different Mod?
BTW will the new Regimental version be incorporated in the new version as WITA was in 5.1?

The NTW3 v60 mod will include new Regimental mod which will REPLACE the WITA mod (beta version) that was never fully completed.
There will also be improvements to the v51 MP battle mod that have been discussed here on the Lordz forum as well as improvements and updates for the SP Campaign mod. Perhaps even some new battles for Lord Desaix's HB mod :wink:
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