Russian Guerillas

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Russian Guerillas

Postby White » Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:35 pm

I think this patch is pretty great so far apart from one thing. A major nation having guerilla cavalry. It might be historically accurate however in my opinion it gives the Russians a massive advantage in LOC games. One no other major has.

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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby Alfr » Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:44 pm

I like them, to me it's realistic representing them swarming around the edges of marching armies, they are quite bad otherwise I've been trying for weeks to take someones guns at the start but haven't managed it yet, even the scouting advantage can be countered.

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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby Lord Lancier » Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:09 am

Agree with White. Some minors having guerilla option (like in ver 5.0) is ok as you have give away min your 3 faction points to have Ottomans or Spain or more points with other minors but Russia is 20 points faction and is almost in every game so 1 side in every game see his opponent at start, almost. Not good for ntw3 soul anyway.
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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby oOIYvYIOo » Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:21 am

I think all the nations , should have 1 unit of Hussards that would have the hability of advance deployment.
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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby Wym... » Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:56 pm

In all the games I've played and replays I've watched the Cossacks have been of little use,they deploy with an over watch on a enemy position......the enemy then instantly drives them off with cav.... the cossacks run for the hills loosing the enemy positions of march?,with their low moral they are fine for chasing routers or aiding better cav in a battle? as all militia cav is.

thou I like the idea of all nations being able to use a small squadron of Lt cav for advanced scouting if players want them??

imo the minor nations with foot Guerillas are more of a hindrance to the enemy in LOC games?(or even possibly mounted infantry)
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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby Sloop » Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:29 am

I believe that no unit should have guerrilla deployment. One of the greatest aspects of NTW3 was hidden units and fog of war. Not even NTW has this. The beginning minutes of NTW3 create the possibility for strategic planning without the opponents knowledge. Command ideas and execution of complex maneuvers to outwit the opposition was one of the greatest innovations of NTW3. The need to properly reconnoiter as well as screen from the enemies' scouts created a whole new level of operational thought. Guerrillas completely destroy this part of the mod. If your opponent chooses a guerrilla faction then you must assume you will have no option but to march the most predictable course because they will see you anyway. I would think that modders would have enhanced the Fog of War rather than destroy it.

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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby Lord Liberalis » Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:23 pm

Very good point Sloop. As much as I hate to admit this, you're right.
Maybe leave a maximum of one deployable "guerilla scout cav" per nation, for nations who do have guerilla cav.

Maybe restrict this to Spain and Russia only. Or even a unique trait for Spain only.
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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby Lord Lancier » Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:23 pm

Agree !
Sloop wrote:I believe that no unit should have guerrilla deployment. One of the greatest aspects of NTW3 was hidden units and fog of war. Not even NTW has this. The beginning minutes of NTW3 create the possibility for strategic planning without the opponents knowledge. Command ideas and execution of complex maneuvers to outwit the opposition was one of the greatest innovations of NTW3. The need to properly reconnoiter as well as screen from the enemies' scouts created a whole new level of operational thought. Guerrillas completely destroy this part of the mod. If your opponent chooses a guerrilla faction then you must assume you will have no option but to march the most predictable course because they will see you anyway. I would think that modders would have enhanced the Fog of War rather than destroy it.
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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby Wym... » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:11 pm

FOW is somewhat redundant anyway?? even with out Guerillas.......that is until the enemy marching sounds are hidden by the FOW????
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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby Lord Lancier » Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:12 pm

Yes Wym but it is still different to SEE whole opponent army marching with most details of its oob i think.
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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby stilgar » Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:37 pm

If Sloop began "complaining", then it's serious ... guerrilla units indeed kill FoW.
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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby Wym... » Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:04 pm

Lord Lancier wrote:Yes Wym but it is still different to SEE whole opponent army marching with most details of its oob i think.


Not with 5.1?? as most players like yourself only use inf and cav with no art so OOB's are becoming very similar for most players(load with light inf/decent line and cav with no skirmishers or art),likewise the sounds dictate the position of attack usually a flank?add to this that these Guerillas are instantly driven away buy tougher enemy cav before the enemy even leaves their deployment zones so their advanced scouting is null in void

IMO the only advantage with 5.1 is the cav buff and the casualties inflicted on friendly skirmishers by friendly cav running through them??if only unit spacing could be altered for all line units and cav so friendly cav will likewise injure friendly line inf during these stupid blob charges and it would be also very good to see ONLY ONE UNIT on any given area of land.....no more of this stacking rubbish........ummmm dream on Wym

Other than the above 2 points I feel 5.1 is a slight step backwards for a realistic ish Nap mod(thou I still enjoy it)
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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby Lord Lancier » Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:54 pm

If the mod is not dead by now i will try to express my opinion on this issue again ... If Russian guerilla cav is not that useful as most oobs mostly the same why we have them then ? I think they are very useful as you can see which factions and players of the opponents are on which side of the map also all players in an alliance dont need to take arty and skirmishers but only some will be enough so with Russian guerilla cav you can spot them easily. If it is not a majör thats ok but Russians are almost in all games one side seeing the enemy marching flank also giving idea which faction is on which flank and quality of lines for each player. Besides i dont agree with oob issue, Jack play with massive quality line-light infantry and Alfr play with massive quality cavalry + arty support. We cant say one is better than the other. So everyone play with the oob best it suits to them. That doesnt mean we dont need a patch, all know IG is OP and British needs to be better but thats some other issue course. But acc to me we must get rid of Russian guerillas as a MAJOR faction! maybe from all guerilla units of the mod which kill the FOW feature of NTW3 on these small maps. ^^
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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby Wym... » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:20 pm

umm hopefully the mod will never die?? anyway I guess the Lordz added these units as advanced scouts were used by most nations.....Great Britain always used light cav to scout in advance of our army.....GB also used "Exploring Officers" to scout deep in the enemies rear while wearing full uniform so they could not be accused of "spying" I assume other nations did the same? these Guerillas can only effectively scout IF their enemy lets them??? every game I play and every replay I watch with the exception of one shows enemy Guerillas being driven off post haste before the enemy even leaves their deployment zone thus gaining virtually no advantage for the Guerillas commander(Spain and the Turks are different because of the Infantry/Art forces that can deploy anywhere) .........OOB's as you know have changed since 5.1 (unfortunately) though your point about Russia in particular is easily solved??they either loose their Guerillas or the Lordz give all nations a single squadron of scouts?? either way imo their are other issues with 5.1 that also need addressing??

At the end of the day us Vets want a decent historically accurate ish Nap game...
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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby Sloop » Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:22 am

Why do I bother?

If historically there were scouts everywhere and no fog of war, then FOW should be eliminated from the mod altogether. On the other hand, if the Spanish, Ottomans, and Russians had such superior stealth training and abilities over the French and all other nations that they could deploy numerous brigades forward and hidden without the enemies' less trained reconnaissance and "officer scouts" spotting them, then keep the guerrillas in the mod.

"Listening" to hidden enemy units is still an estimates guess as to the opponent's deployments and movement. The opponent can also use counters such as decoys. Besides nothing can be done about the sounds. BPA recently used a "delayed attack" tactic (brilliant really) by keeping a large force hidden and still so that it could not be heard or seen and then moving it to assault later, they would not have attempted this if guerrillas were in play. The classic feint where cavalry ensures secrecy always necessitates critical initial deployment, but this plan is never attempted when guerrillas are in play. The need to achieve early cavalry superiority to reconnoiter an opponent's critical deployment is mute point if you can bring a cheap guerrilla unit instead... etc. etc.

Of course Liberalis would agree with me. I will give him credit for some of the most creative and outlandish maneuvers (and unit builds). His strategic ideas would be foiled instantly with just a quick peek at his deployments.

Regardless of how little someone may appreciate and utilize the fog of war, would they sacrifice it for the option of a few guerrilla units?

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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby Lord Davn » Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:36 am

Sloops has a good argument. Compare the "Guerrilla" units from v4 to v51 that have unrestricted deployment on the battle map.
Its gone from 5 units in v4.0 to 41 units in the v5.1 mod (excluding Loc units). This is a problem that needs to be corrected with the next patch.

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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby Lord Fullin » Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:57 am

GUerrillas units has no place in a pitched battle.

This is not a campaign game.
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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby DOC » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:18 am

Lord Fullin wrote:GUerrillas units has no place ina pitched battle.

This is not a campaign game.


And there you have it. From an historical point I've never read an account of a battle where guerillas have been present or scouting officers for that matter. Their function was at the higher grand tactical level. ie french army is moving from A to B with one Corp detached. They were not sitting on a battlefield like recce scouts from the modern era. Away with them I say, this is what your light cav is for.

Plus you could class all battles on NTW 3 as meeting engagements anyway, there is hardly ever the classical defender attacker role, so the guerillas and scouting offices have already cocked up.
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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby oOIYvYIOo » Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:57 pm

Guerrillas units existed on the Spanish armies warfare,Prussian freikorps,Portuguese legions,it was more than a common military tactic .
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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby Chromey » Sat Mar 12, 2016 7:19 pm

as long as guerilla are weak units that cannot put up a major fight I dont mind them being in game or Russia having them but currently their being able to field 6 guerilla cav PER PLAYER can really be a major threat and thus a balance problem.
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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby Lord Lancier » Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:02 pm

If Ottoman is made like Spain, 'few units being guerillas only but not almost whole army', problem will be fixed to a degree if we dont want to omit guerilla feature totally. Tho not having any guerilla feature would be preferable according to me.
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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby Lord Avon Ulysses » Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:48 am

Guerrilla units were originally included to give the Spanish some character.
They have been expanded since, not to everyone's liking.

But there was a reason for it all, if they are now more trouble than their worth we will look into reducing/removing them.
The guerrilla Cossacks are almost universally despised, so they will almost certainly go.

The Ottomans are a different kettle of fish.
Their whole army (except a few elite units) was given this power.
This is an attempt to simulate the way that the Ott's generally fought in a nap' wars: from am entrenched position.
If they could only build their fort in the deployment area it would rarely be usefull.
Unfortunately this has led to gamey tactics ( spreading steaks across most of the battlefield, not just to guard the Ott's fort being the main one.
To cure this we are looking to reduce the amount of steaks they can put down, as well as possibly making a few less units guerrilla deployable.

The Prussian Friecorps is the other 'free deploying' faction.
This was included as it seemed to be a nifty idea, as well as something to give both sides in a battle the ability to hold an advanced position.
I've never found them to be OP, but they have provided some interesting situation with players looking to squash the 'speed hump' before help can arrive.
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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby Sloop » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:21 pm

Nice logic Avon.

I think it would be good to have a few "all guerrilla" factions as this can enable variety in in scenarios. This might not simulate guerrillas as much as a strategic option in scenario building. Why not have a separate guerrilla deploy-able faction for all Majors? Obviously these guerrilla deploy-able factions would have a much higher cost. The players can always choose to limit or disallow their use. This would give the Lordz a good excuse to make new factions.

I'm not sure about this whole idea, I might just be babbling.

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Re: Russian Guerillas

Postby White » Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:30 pm

I think the Ottomans are fine.


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